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First they came for the Iranians

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Re: First they came for the Iranians

#241

Post by matt4077 »

tiatia wrote: post #230
salimmadjd wrote: post #9

Trump is ostensibly using the 9/11 play card to justify banning few muslim countries [0]. This is obviously a lie, since most of 911 hijackers were Saudis and his executive order is not banning the Saudis. I'm guessing on the strength of the Saudi lobby in DC [1] AND/OR Trump's potential business conflict in Saudi Arabia [2]. [0] https://www.scribd.com/document/337545704/Draft-Executive-Or... [1] https://en.wikipedia…

So he is banning, among others, Syrians and Somalians? Need a passport? Just pick up a Somali passport on the street for a few bucks. They are not biometric: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3704127.stm Syrian passports, real and fake, are for Sale in Syria. The ISIS has its hands on real documents in occupied countries. Sounds like a very reasonable decision for me. Should have banned Saudi Arabia, the cradle of Wa…

Merkel was acting on what she believed to be a moral imperative: that those fleeing danger have a right to asylum. All her decisions follow logically if you accept that premise. I. e. it would make no sense to make such a right dependent on the total number of refugees.

In the specific moment you're alluding to she made the decision to suspend the Dublin rules because they were clearly failing (i. e. refugees were clearly being mistreated by the Hungary regime, and the situation in Greece was deteriorating to the point where both the country and the refugees urgently needed relief). At that point, the basic right outlined above and the Dublin rules were in conflict, and human rights generally trump implementation specifics such as Dublin in these circumstances.

In any case, the Dublin convention governs the burden-sharing between nations and does not impact an individual's relation with these states, or their basic rights. That's comparable to, for example, medical care in an emergency: your insurance company may have all sorts of debt with the hospital, but the doctors are still required to treat your compound fracture.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#242

Post by [deleted] »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #234
fdschoeneman wrote: post #195

It's unclear what Trump is trying to accomplish here. It seems stupid and I feel bad for the people whose lives it diverts or puts in hold. But the Nazi comparison either trivializes the Holocaust or unfairly hitlerizes Donald Trump for what may be a legitimate concern over technology transfer to a country that actively opposes US interests. There are plenty of countries that suspend student visas without going on to…

The language neither trivializes the Holocaust nor does it unfairly hitlerizes Trump. It describes what is going on in a way more of the general population can understand. There have been many populist governments around the world over time. Hitler wasn't the first to do that sort of thing. Unfortunately, not everyone remembers all the names or knows the history - so comparing him to a lesser-known leader (which he m…

[deleted]

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#243

Post by fdschoeneman »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #234
fdschoeneman wrote: post #195

It's unclear what Trump is trying to accomplish here. It seems stupid and I feel bad for the people whose lives it diverts or puts in hold. But the Nazi comparison either trivializes the Holocaust or unfairly hitlerizes Donald Trump for what may be a legitimate concern over technology transfer to a country that actively opposes US interests. There are plenty of countries that suspend student visas without going on to…

The language neither trivializes the Holocaust nor does it unfairly hitlerizes Trump. It describes what is going on in a way more of the general population can understand. There have been many populist governments around the world over time. Hitler wasn't the first to do that sort of thing. Unfortunately, not everyone remembers all the names or knows the history - so comparing him to a lesser-known leader (which he m…

Listen if Hitler is the only comparison you think people understand, and you think the only way to convince them that a thing is bad and should be avoided is because, like, Hitler, and because in some racism dream where you get darker than you are and a bunch of majority culture white rednecks confuses you for a terrorist instead of just a normal american of partially Syrian or Italian or Mexican or native American or Guatemalan extraction that's fine. Call trump Hitler all you want. You won't be the first, and apparently you have a fellow traveler as a professor at MIT. Just don't expect me to take you seriously. Not when you're comparing Trump to Hitler for putting a hold on visas of students from a country whose official policy calls for the destruction of Israel and which is actively hostile to the interests of the united states, and who might facilitate potentially dangerous technology transfers to same. Though for the sake of consistency, and to seem less partisan, you may wish to consider similarly comparing Jimmy Carter to Josef Dzugashvili because he put a much longer hold on Iranian student visas in the late 70's.

Your call.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#244

Post by guildwriter »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #231
guildwriter wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say this is deeply unfair to people living in communities decimated by meth just as I would say it's deeply unfair to people living in inner cities. This is not to say that drugs alone are the problem, but that there are a multitude of factors creating an ugly feedback system. Words are difficult to convey this sort of thing so I'm going to do my best: 1) The primary source of jobs in the region leaves due to mac…

Your reasoning fails at (1). The money spent purchasing a home is sunk cost. It's gone. It's never coming back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost#Loss_aversion_and_th... Furthermore, I claim it does not require us to be "moral superpeople" to get past this situation. There are many populations with vastly worse problems than (1) who don't turn to drugs, unplanned pregnancy, abandoning their wives and refusing t…

You realize that the sunk cost fallacy proves what I'm trying to say? Most people really struggle with that sort of thing. It's one of the reasons why behavioral economics has taken off in recent history. People are not perfect actors.

Of course there are people with problems who don't turn to drugs that are also poor. The point I'm trying to make is that saying the best and only solution isn't necessarily to say that people are lazy and that they need to shape up. Or build a wall for that matter.

It's also worth noting that the reasons why Mexicans can move and abandon their societal networks is because of the strength of the dollar versus the peso, the cost of living they are willing to put up with, and the work they are willing to do. Where is an American going to go that gets a similar instant upgrade in purchasing power? What about the societal reality that people in America are not willing to do backbreaking labor like picking fruit?

And who says rural Mexicans have it any better?

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/03/mexico-los...

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#245

Post by matt4077 »

coldtea wrote: post #103
matthewbauer wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the executive's power. There is literally nothing that can be done about it for the next 4 years besides try to change Trump's mind (or pray he does something impeachable).

> There is literally nothing that can be done about it for the next 4 years Actually mass protests to the level of e.g. the French May of 68 might very well bring down a government. But that is for a determined population.

I keep being surprised by the power that such protests actually have. You'll read all sorts of statements like "what should anybody care about a bunch of hippies on the streets etc.", and in the US there also seems to be an undercurrent of regarding all protests as illegal, or highlighting the smallest incidents that could possibly scare the "soccer mum" demographic.

But then there are frequent examples of protests accomplishing everything from regime change (arab spring) to less-obvious but still substantial changes (see for example the G7/G8 agendas from before and after the meetings started to be a focus for mass demonstrations). Even Occupy, which has probably been the subject of more derision than any other movement, has actually had a major impact: The 99%/1% has become one of the leading narratives of politics in the US and Europe.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#246

Post by tiatia »

matt4077 wrote: post #241
tiatia wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So he is banning, among others, Syrians and Somalians? Need a passport? Just pick up a Somali passport on the street for a few bucks. They are not biometric: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3704127.stm Syrian passports, real and fake, are for Sale in Syria. The ISIS has its hands on real documents in occupied countries. Sounds like a very reasonable decision for me. Should have banned Saudi Arabia, the cradle of Wa…

Merkel was acting on what she believed to be a moral imperative: that those fleeing danger have a right to asylum. All her decisions follow logically if you accept that premise. I. e. it would make no sense to make such a right dependent on the total number of refugees. In the specific moment you're alluding to she made the decision to suspend the Dublin rules because they were clearly failing (i. e. refugees were cl…

"In the specific moment you're alluding to she made the decision to suspend the Dublin rules because they were clearly failing"

The problem with "making the decision" is that there is no executive order for the German chancellor, as apposed to the US president in the German constitution. Ruling by chancellor decree had fallen out of favor in Germany in the last 70 years. Ms. Merkel with her dubious past with East German state security ("IM Erika") does not need to be re-elected. She needs to stand in front of a judge!

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#247

Post by matt4077 »

corndoge wrote: post #85

"Today, we learned that Trump is suspending the issuance of US visas to people from seven majority-Islamic countries, including Iran (but strangely not Saudi Arabia, the cradle of Wahhabist terrorism)." And yet, from the very source linked in the article-- "Details about the forthcoming executive orders are still unconfirmed. But here’s what we can say with high confidence." If you trust AP, then sure, it's likely th…

I'm not sure why AP is the subject of your scorn here. They're accurately reporting the document that was leaked, and it's in the publics' interest to learn about such actions as soon as possible. Such leaks are sometimes intended as trial balloons, for example, and the reporting may stop the worst from happening by allowing the public to react at a time where the administrations still has a face-saving way out. That may actually be what is happening with the similar leak of Trump's intended reinstatement of torture as official US policy.

The uncertainty expressed in the piece does not mean that the AP is unsure if the document is real. They usually get such material from sources they know, and have experience with. They are firstly hedging against the possibility of the administration changing its mind, and – specifically for the current flurry of executive actions – there is a lot of legal uncertainty because it isn't always clear how they are to be interpreted, if they fall within the executive branches' authority, and how they fit into existing laws.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#248

Post by mmrezaie »

nir wrote: post #215
Melchizedek wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the hijackers motives, Saudi Arabia is by far the worst country when it comes to exporting and supporting terror. Iran is an island of sanity by comparison, and there are no Shia terrorist organizations nowadays (Hezbollah are not terrorists - they don't blow up random civilians).

I suppose Rafic Hariri isn't "random" as he was after all Lebanon's democratically elect Prime Minister when Hezbollah assassinated him, but how about the 21 people who also died in that bombing? I personally know a man who lost his wife (mother of their 3 kids) when Hezbollah bombed the Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires. 85 civilians were killed, but then again mostly Jewish so not exactly "random" either. It…

That is true but 21 to thousands that just die in Yemen or by Isis is not even considerable. I think we should compare them and not going to say that one is not bad at all. They are both are fundamentally against human freedom and liberal ideas, but one is so far worst.

Although I think if only west could stop buying their oils then they both will suffocate. There is not a single country with rich oil in the Middle-east that uses the money from oil for their people. They all have first and second class citizens.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#249

Post by notahacker »

Gustomaximus wrote: post #169
digitalengineer wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not without danger, I believe. Having Israeli stamps in your Iranien passport...

Wrong. Israel will stamp a separate piece of paper to leave in your passport during your visit for exactly this reason.

Having records of a their Israeli degree all over the internet is probably a bigger problem for somebody intending to return to Iran at some point in the near future, even if only just to visit.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#250

Post by mmrezaie »

throwaway99oi9 wrote: post #61
throwaway2131 wrote: post #27

I am an Iranian CS student. I had a fully funded PhD admission at one of the US universities. I was admitted for the Fall 2016 semester. I am currently in Iran due to my visa not being issued despite the 7 months I have waited for it. I was able to defer my admission to Spring 2017 semester, but then _this_ happened. I am quite sure that I will never be able to attend this program. I had very high hopes for my future…

I'm an immigrant too - I've been here 9 years, but now I'm getting out. Canada, Australia and New Zealand are viable options for me, and I've already been invited by 2 of these countries. Don't be disheartened. You're smart (you got a fully funded PhD), and the world is very big, with many opportunities. Good luck!

I want to second this. I also had a Ph.D. full fund in the USA but I went to Sweden, and why? Well in that time I had an opportunity to work and fund an start up and boy I am so lucky to find my supervisor in Sweden (over a simple phone call).

Compared to the USA, universities in Sweden, offer far more support to for patents and starting your startups. You essentially get all the support and university won't own your work.

You may think what happened to you is bad (and it is) but sometimes it turns to a new and better opportunity.

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