Should gifted students go to a separate school? • Hacker News Board

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#351

Post by gvd » Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 2:18 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

How about we make society more equal instead of sending people that stand out already even quicker to the "top".

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#352

Post by civility » Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 2:25 AM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #162

zepto wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except not. You do have to deal with people not like you in 'real life', but the conditions are nothing like school, wherein you are forced to do so under disadvantageous conditions. Maybe it's worth experiencing this once or twice, but to be put through it for years is nothing more than abuse.

On any given software team of more than 10 people, I can promise you at least 1 of them is regarded by the others as less skilled. The truth of that isn't relevant, the fact is even competent or highly skilled people may have a hard time presenting that skill verbally and/or in writing. And even if you do somehow manage to go through an entire career without encountering someone like that or dealing with another pers…

> I fail to see the downside of learning social and communication skills for people not like yourself. That just sounds like a recipe for a well rounded individual.

You might also have failed to see all the bright kids who dumbed themselves down and achieved a lot less than they could have in order to attain popularity and avoid bullying. I'll take "well rounded" to mean "not really excelling in anything".

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#353

Post by balfirevic » Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 2:32 AM UTC

bigtunacan wrote: post #217

_m8fo wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love this story. Thanks for sharing. I'm curious though, did you try this with your other kid? The one who's presumably not having any problems? I'm curious if your method would further strengthen their resolve.

While I haven't tried that particular thing on the other two kids I have used equally unique/creative "punishments" on all of the children. I set strong boundaries and consistent enforcement for all of them. For minor infractions, my go to punishment is to make them do a plank while we "discuss" what they did wrong. If you have ever done planks you know the agony of holding a plank for long enough. The great thing ab…

What a great way to make them hate physical exercise for the rest of their lives. Also, agony and humiliation ("discussing") is apparently only for minor infractions - major ones need something more!

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#354

Post by xiaoma » Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 2:36 AM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #116

justin_vanw wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Who cares? This is not an argument for or against this. It's totally inappropriate to decide the best way to educate a child based on your personal theories about how wealth should be distributed, and your untested wild ass guess about what effect some educational policy would have on that theory. 2. You get better teachers and a stimulating environment that is challenging. - Small classes: maybe, it's not necessa…

I won't respond to the first point. If you're seriously asking "who cares" about income inequality then I don't think discourse will be productive. In any case, you didn't seem to refute my main point that gifted schools would also benefit regular students.

What is there in your main point that needs "refuting"? Putting ordinary students in schools optimized for the gifted is no better than demolishing schools for special needs students and sending the children to regular schools regardless of the consequences.

In what way would it possibly benefit a typical student to be placed in a school where they can't keep up? How would it feel for that child to be in an environment where it's normal for their peers to take college courses before reaching high school age? In my experience, it's extremely demotivating and leads to a lot of pain for the child, no matter how wealthy his or her parents may be.

As justin_vanw pointed out (in an undeservedly flagged sibling post), it seems an awful lot like you deny the existence of gifted children to begin with.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#355

Post by atErik » Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 2:43 AM UTC

dagw wrote: post #33

dijit wrote: post #2

Absolutely. I'm going to sound very self-centered and certainly not humble but when I was enrolled in mandatory education I was doing so under Tony Blair's Labour government. This government was elected under premises such as nationalisation and additionally "Education, Education, Education"[0]. As such no child was allowed to fail school. This had the opposite affect in my primary school, instead of segregating the…

The solution to the problem you describe is different classes for students of different abilities, not different schools. The school I went to (in England) split most classes into 4 sets where the 'best' student's in each subject went to set 1 and the ones that need extra help went to set 3 or 4. Then there where extra-curricular 'clubs' in certain subjects for students that wanted to go even deeper than the lessons…

I agree w/ dagw. Schools need to have extra classes, extra-curricular classes, etc based on set of similarly gifted students' abilities, or based on set of similarly non-gifted/regular students' lack-of-abilities to improve their abilities. If needed, eligible volunteer or paid teacher should be arranged on specific time. A separate school for gifted students or a separate school for regular/non-gifted students is very-bad/non-gifted idea w/evil & ineffective motives.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#356

Post by bigtunacan » Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 2:57 AM UTC

balfirevic wrote: post #353

bigtunacan wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I haven't tried that particular thing on the other two kids I have used equally unique/creative "punishments" on all of the children. I set strong boundaries and consistent enforcement for all of them. For minor infractions, my go to punishment is to make them do a plank while we "discuss" what they did wrong. If you have ever done planks you know the agony of holding a plank for long enough. The great thing ab…

What a great way to make them hate physical exercise for the rest of their lives. Also, agony and humiliation ("discussing") is apparently only for minor infractions - major ones need something more!

Contrary to your judgements, they have all grown a healthy love and competitive spirit regarding athletics. My 7 year old has six pack abs which she loves showing off and she was swimming before her 5th birthday. Her and my son are both enthusiastic gymnastics. My son also races BMX, which is a draining year round sport. Meanwhile my oldest competes in swimming, volleyball, dance, and as of late has been begging me to let her join a mixed martial art.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#357

Post by bloaf » Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 3:04 AM UTC

Aqueous wrote: post #93

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

4. This idea that education is only for my own individual welfare has to end. It's creating a culture of individual atomism that is instilling the most anti-social, selfish values and corroding the country at its roots. We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If you're smart, you set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from t…

Lets do remember the evidence suggests that home-schooled children tend to outperform public school children academically.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#358

Post by xiaoma » Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 3:16 AM UTC

emiliobumachar wrote: post #341

URSpider94 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My reply: 1. There are standard tests and evaluations for giftedness, these can be given at any time past age 4. They are about thinking and behavior, not achievement. Years of study shows that these traits don't generally change much with age. So called "late bloomers", if they are gifted, would almost certainly have been gifted much earlier in life but maybe not identified. 2. I think this is a valid point, but I'd…

> No amount of Baby Einstein or aggressive pre-schooling is going to change a kid's IQ dramatically Proper early nutrition will. There's no bottom for parents' motivations, nor to their capacity, unfortunately.

Improper early nutrition sure will.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#359

Post by rfrey » Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 3:27 AM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #299

justin_vanw wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I think you'll find that parents are very uninterested in your theories of social engineering [cite needed] How can I find a citation for a my own statement that I believe something? Are you under the impression that the comments section of HN is a scholarly journal where all claims are documented? I notice that you don't ask for citations for any of the claims in this thread that you agree with, so your demands f…

A belief is not an argument.

Can you back that up with some data?

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#360

Post by mathattack » Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 3:50 AM UTC

run4yourlives2 wrote: post #237

mathattack wrote: post #209

My 2 cents as a parent... The "Don't let any kids fall behind" is an extremely laudable goal. Educating everyone, and aiming for a high standard for people of all abilities and socio-economic backgrounds is extremely vital. We may not be achieving that goal well, but it a very worthy one, and will do more than almost anything else to reduce income inequality. The danger is that having this focus in school means that…

Devil's advocate here: >The danger is that having this focus in school means that kids get neglected once they pass that threshold. Is this a bad thing? Does it even qualify as neglect? If a child is so far ahead of his peers, what benefit is it to have them increase that gap? At some point, they will need to interact with the group they left behind, how does that become an easier task when the distance is even great…

There are schools that decouple learning from age (example: Khan Academy Lab School) but I haven't seen many public ones that pull it off.

Kids learn at uneven paces, so there is no perfect formula for how to split schools, but an imperfect split is still more efficient than boring the best.

In New York City they have a lot of G and T programs, but there it is more about lazybtrachers letting the kids teach themselves. At least it's a stronger peer group.