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Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise

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Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise

#181

Post by Florin_Andrei »

acchow wrote: post #141
codemac wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I worked outside of SV, I saw the same thing. Several engineers went off to schools nearby to get MBAs just so their careers could improve. Once in SV though... I rarely see this. When you get an MBA, it's a huge signal to an employer that you accomplished something, and no amount of bad management can ignore that you were issued an MBA. I think job hopping in SV can accomplish the same type of signal.

> When you get an MBA, it's a huge signal to an employer that you accomplished something What?

Well, it's a signal, the meaning of which is up to the recipient.

It's all about signals.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise

#182

Post by brlewis »

thisisit wrote: post #144
sage76 wrote: post #110

At a unicorn I was working at, MBAs were being hired to be engineering managers. I did not see a single engineer promoted to management, it was mostly all MBAs. The few I had direct contact were really useless at helping engineers out, all I ever heard from them was "Just get it done.". If I asked for help, they'd say "Well who else is gonna do it then?". I felt demoralised and lost some of my confidence. But the com…

While I can't speak for what happened at this company. I think the problem is not "MBAs or engineers being managers" rather them not being good listeners. And that is the point the HBR article is also missing. In my previous job, I had manager (ex-engineer) who would often say - "I don't even understand what are you talking about". But he would always listen patiently to us and even spend some of his personal time af…

I suspect you're right.

The reason for the phenomenon this article is about is that deep expertise correlates with being a good listener when an engineer is describing a problem. But it isn't a necessary condition.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise

#183

Post by dnautics »

vijucat wrote: post #168
acchow wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you get an MBA, it's a huge signal to an employer that you accomplished something What?

That you bring some core competencies to the table that are actionable [1]. That you can calc the ROI on data-driven paradigm shifts [1]. That you can ensure there are enough boots on the ground to manage customer expectations. That you can peel the onion on our go-to markets and incentivize monetizable synergies leading to win-win solutions [2]. That you have become an irreplaceable employee, that you're a girl who…

I think it's also of nonzero importance that an MBA ups the likelihood that you understand those terms of business art. As much as it pains me to stump for the MBA, being able to effectively communicate these concepts is important, and having an MBA doesn't preclude having been an engineering superstar with deep knowledge.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise

#184

Post by 6stringmerc »

bognition wrote: post #2

>The benefit of having a highly competent boss is easily the largest positive influence on a typical worker’s level of job satisfaction This is one of those great discoveries that is hardly surprising and makes you wonder why it hadn't be seen before. Honestly some of my worst work experiences were getting jerked around by a superior who completely failed to understand the work required to do my job.

And, as I can attest first hand along with more than a couple other employees, a highly incompetent boss can result in talent fleeing and the collapse of an entire functioning team responsible for millions in project bids annually.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise

#185

Post by smrtinsert »

sage76 wrote: post #110

At a unicorn I was working at, MBAs were being hired to be engineering managers. I did not see a single engineer promoted to management, it was mostly all MBAs. The few I had direct contact were really useless at helping engineers out, all I ever heard from them was "Just get it done.". If I asked for help, they'd say "Well who else is gonna do it then?". I felt demoralised and lost some of my confidence. But the com…

Yeah sounds like Zenefits sucked.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise

#186

Post by blister »

pdimitar wrote: post #130
blister wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just my perspective. I've been in (increasingly) challenging engineering leadership roles over the past 5 or so years. When I first started, I felt exactly like you do. That my job was to enable and empower my engineering team to build awesome product and that all the "management" stuff was a huge waste of time. I received some advice from my boss that I was missing 50% of the job. You're being paid and expec…

Appreciate the feedback, thank you. I had a pretty good idea on what was expected of me even back then. Truth be told, I would have cultivated the more business-oriented skills with time if the management environment wasn't so full of self-congratulatory practices and people patting themselves on the back -- while all of them know perfectly well they contributed no more than $500 to their employer's bottom line at th…

I had to trick my brain into just enjoying it as a strange engineering discipline. I like to go through life imagining everything as a system to be programmed, so to me, business politics was just a different type of system in a programming language I had yet to learn.

Now I like to think that I can bend those systems to my will as well. :)

Good luck with your small business endeavors.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise

#187

Post by vorg »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #71
zzalpha wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it is not. Well, the HBR studies cited, here, indicate a correlation between a manager who could do their direct report's job and job satisfaction of that direct report. It does not claim that this is necessary for direct report job satisfaction, only that it makes it more likely. So, my comment could have been better phrased as: The reality is that in order to effectively manage, it helps if they understand…

Yeah I think there's a balance here. One of my favorite managers also didn't understand my project (although he did understand software engineering in general) and I later found out everyone else hated him. I've seen what I suspect is similar later: managers who just see their job as defending their team. Someone needs something from the team? Push back. Their teams needs something? Hound those responsible. Team has…

You'd be lucky in software engineering if your non-technical manager sees their job as just defending their team. Someone needs something from the team? Push the team to give it to them. Their teams needs something? Give excuses on behalf of higher management but take all the flak from your employees for the excuses. Team has an opinion? Promote upper management's opinion as undisputed truth. Does have ability to recognize the bigger picture of their next promotion or new job. Just like a lawyer for their own CV.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise

#188

Post by gdledsan »

A leader has to lead, it does not matter if the leader knows or does not know how to do the team's job. Those MBAs were not leaders, as simple as that.

However, a company does not need a lot of MBAs to function, 1 or 2 should be enough, dedicated to improve the business in general. That unicorn was very sick.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise

#189

Post by DashRattlesnake »

analog31 wrote: post #147
pjungwir wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my in-laws is a geologist who works for the oil companies, and he tells me in that industry almost all the big executives are engineers. Since he's been in the news, take Rex Tillerson. His degree is in engineering. Or take any of "the professions": law, accounting, medicine, business consulting, engineering firms. In all those cases you have "partners" who have moved into sales and management. Sometimes they…

My hypothesis is that the MBA degree is largely valued by other people with MBA degrees, so you have pockets of high MBA concentration that grow within specific businesses. MBA's hire other MBA's, but also encourage their most promising subordinates to get MBA's.

> My hypothesis is that the MBA degree is largely valued by other people with MBA degrees, so you have pockets of high MBA concentration that grow within specific businesses.

I have a friend who got a specialist business degree and then got an MBA. I don't really recall him ever really talking about what he studied or learned during the MBA, but he did talk a lot about networking. A lot of the program consisted of taking many foreign "educational" trips all over the world (networking with classmates) and then access to the alumni network was supposed to help you get a job. It really sounded more like a high-class job placement club than an educational pursuit. If that's how it actually is, I can totally see how a business can get colonized by MBAs once one gets his foot in the door.

My friend himself is a good guy, but a couple of his classmates are some of the shallowest people I've ever met.

Re: Employees are happier when led by people with deep expertise

#190

Post by dv_dt »

oculusthrift wrote: post #159
sage76 wrote: post #110

At a unicorn I was working at, MBAs were being hired to be engineering managers. I did not see a single engineer promoted to management, it was mostly all MBAs. The few I had direct contact were really useless at helping engineers out, all I ever heard from them was "Just get it done.". If I asked for help, they'd say "Well who else is gonna do it then?". I felt demoralised and lost some of my confidence. But the com…

If you watch Noam Chomsky's 'Requiem for the American Dream' on Netflix it talks about how the heads of all these companies used to be engineers but at some point all the finance/MBA type of people started dominating these positions. This also happened in Washington and now essentially the whole world is owned/run by Finance/MBA types who focus on short term earnings instead of value creation.

Focus on is maybe slightly missing the point, they may not even have the background to appreciate or imagine the possibility of value creation that is not in their area of expertise. So certain possibilities are essentially invisible to those companies. It's made worse because it's the large successful corporations that actually have the resources to fix problems that few other players can even imagine (even with venture funding....).

So those companies (and the market, and society) may miss out on fundamental exploration and expansion of real-world productivity. Perhaps, this is a contributor in the curious drop in economic productivity despite, in theory, so much availability of new technology.

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