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Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

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Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all one damn earth. People already take advantage of each other. Why worry about the person next door? At least they aren't trying to kill you.

> At least they aren't trying to kill you. Depends. Most are not, but in some cases, they are (e.g. islamic terrorism in France and Germany). But the main reason is that some peoples/places have developed their own culture over centuries, and don't particularly appreciate some large rush of newcomers bringing their own stuff and messing the nice thing they have got going.

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Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#172
post #75

Comparisons between the US and European countries are often useless. Either they pick a rich European country that has restricted immigration for a long time, or they say "Western Europe" while ignoring many of the countries in Western Europe that have some real challenges (like unemployment). Germany or the UK might be reasonable comparison points. Not perfect, of course (still huge differences), but it's much more…

Swedens is quite similar and has (until recently) had a very liberal immigraiton policy.

Sweden population 9.5M, less than 3% the size of US polulation.

I'm glad they are so happy with their country, but not sure if it scales 30X. And regardless of policy, I suspect the actual immigration numbers (and affluence of immigrants) is much different than the US.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we aren't talking about the short term, or are we? 50 years in the grand scheme of things seems quite short term when discussing such extreme cases as a communist country that was starving only decades ago and Switzerland: they are two polar opposites. But fundamentally wealth is not a zero sum game. Countries have internal markets too. The idea that China can only grow if the rest of the world gets richer too is…

I agree with all of this, but that 50 year case was ludicrously generous - I gave China every penny of economic growth in the entire world. What I'm saying is that "China could be like Switzerland by implementing Swiss policies" is implausible, because there simply isn't enough money to be like Switzerland. Even if you think it would work, which I don't, the timeframes involved are up there with "dawn of industrializ…

Why would growth be bounded depending on the cause of that growth? Genuine question, not trying to be snarky.

50 years might be an unrealistic timeframe for China, but then again who knows? Putting aside my personal view that they're going to either stagnate or go backwards within the next decade, it doesn't seem impossible. Although they're obviously much much smaller, Singapore is an example of a country that went from abject poverty to one of the richest in the world in less than a generation.

Again, very different country compared to China, but they were also pretty much at rock-bottom even a decade after WWII ended. They were bombed, invaded and occupied by the Japanese in WWII, which meant they were heavily air-raided/bombed by the Allies in the later stages of the war. They had no natural resources, scarce water supplies and were kicked out of the Malaysian Federation in the early 60s. Even Lee Kwan Yew, at the time, appeared to think the latter was a death sentence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41ND3U_9HgQ .

I dunno. I guess all I'm saying is miracles can happen (although I personally think it unlikely in China's case).

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what did average American citizen got from those companies succeeding? Probably nothing. How did you calculate that? I wouldn't even know where to start measuring the total effects of Twitter on average Americans. I imagine they are wide reaching.

Let me put it this way: Would you rather work more and have twitter or work less and have no twitter?

I like to work, but assuming my job was painful I'd rather work less and have no Twitter.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#175
post #34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain more what do you mean by the word "scale" here?

I think the parent means : Would a Switzerland with the same ratio of different job be able to survive if the Switzerland population was let's say 2 billion people. (or are they relying on France, Germany and other neighbors to sustain their current model for instance)

Ahh, I understand now. That's a bit of a strange question though, considering that most of EU countries (300+ mil people) have similar workers benefits and culture?

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all of this, but that 50 year case was ludicrously generous - I gave China every penny of economic growth in the entire world. What I'm saying is that "China could be like Switzerland by implementing Swiss policies" is implausible, because there simply isn't enough money to be like Switzerland. Even if you think it would work, which I don't, the timeframes involved are up there with "dawn of industrializ…

Why would growth be bounded depending on the cause of that growth? Genuine question, not trying to be snarky. 50 years might be an unrealistic timeframe for China, but then again who knows? Putting aside my personal view that they're going to either stagnate or go backwards within the next decade, it doesn't seem impossible. Although they're obviously much much smaller, Singapore is an example of a country that went…

> Why would growth be bounded depending on the cause of that growth?

Totally fair question. I didn't mean specific causes are bounded (it doesn't matter if your conductors are yttrium or graphene), but I wasn't terribly clear. What I mean is that relative-growth gains are bounded in a way that absolute-growth gains aren't.

Relative growth (i.e. cutting better trade deals, capturing more share and profit on what exists) is constrained by existing wealth + wealth growth. So the pie you can steal from other countries, plus the fairly stable ~2% annual increase in the size of the pie. You can do a bit better than that by increasing internal efficiencies, and in fairness Singapore has done well with this - their health efficiency per healthcare dollar is sky-high, and it's not because they're pioneering radical new medicine. But even so, these effects are generally limited by international conditions and the size of your existing inefficiencies. (Again, to be fair, sky-high in China.)

Absolute growth I'm considering unbounded, or bounded at ludicrous heights. It's about increasing the growth rate of the pie (and capturing some/all of that growth). So industrialization, nitrate fertilizers, and similarly ground-breaking tech all let the pie grow faster and produced incredible pie-growth wealth. (Not computerization, an oddity for which I have theories but no one seems to have answers.)

All of which is to say that the larger your nation, in both absolute terms and percentage of globe terms, the harder it is to get rich on relative gains. Discreet banking was worth some relatively fixed percentage of money movement. That created huge wealth in Switzerland (and the Seychelles), but can't be scaled by employing 10x as many bankers. Bridging East and West with free markets, low-corruption governance, and a stable core city was worth some large amount of money for Singapore, but that can't be scaled by developing 10 such cities. These are tricks where you interpose yourself in the middle of an extreme profit flow, and if your group is small enough then collecting your cut at the margin makes everyone rich.

I confess that I'm overstating, though. My personal suspicion is that gross inefficiencies are a defining trait of most economic activity, and China is surely worse than many. So in that sense, it might be possible to pour money into efficiencies like health, education, and (sustainable) infrastructure and reap massive gains. It might be that 2% global annual growth can be locally beaten by just being less stupid, but Singapore and Switzerland were simply too small alter the global stats with their local improvements. So I could be vastly wrong - maybe handing iron rule of China to another Yew could produce 4% or 8% growth every year, even without any special breakthrough.

As for will happen, I think we agree there. Too much fragility, not enough political will.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#177

I don't want a work-life balance. Sure, the Swiss model is very attractive for a person in a certain phase of life with a certain attitude toward work --- one for whom work is something distinct from life. Me? I want the freedom to pour myself into something I love. I'd rather spend 60 hours per week using all of my faculties to produce something worthwhile than to spend 35 or 40 hours just trading my time for money,…

What is it you love spending 60 hours a week producing, week-over-week? Are you prevented from spending 60 hours a week doing that in Switzerland?

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#178
post #8

Slightly off topic, but the beauty of Switzerland was such a stark contrast to where I grew up in New Jersey that it almost made me angry. All these people, going about their daily lives in Switzerland seemingly oblivious to the fairy-tale landscape around them!

I think the same about Brazil. Endless amounts of natural beauty and it often seems to go unnoticed (or merely noticed but not fully appreciated).

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Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#179
post #143
post #7

"Being rich ruined me for being poor and its lousy perks."

You say that as if the US is a poor country. It's not. There's no reason whatsoever that we couldn't have what Switzerland has, other than some assholes at the top see it as an impediment to their having all of the money.

>There's no reason whatsoever that we couldn't have what Switzerland has, other than some assholes at the top see it as an impediment to their having all of the money.

There are lots of reasons the countries are nothing alike.

For one, Swiss immigration is very picky so they just choose highly skilled immigrants to avoid having to deal with unskilled poor people.

Second, the population density is about 5 times that of the US so it's very easy to focus on public transportation because so many more people get value out of each dollar spent.

Third, Switzerland gets the benefit of paying very little for the military by taking a very nationalistic stance and avoiding involvement in conflicts regardless of the atrocities . Criticizing the US for its imperialism is definitely fair game, but you can't pretend it doesn't cost money when it comes time to compare what a country can offer its citizens.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#180
post #129
post #7

"Being rich ruined me for being poor and its lousy perks."

Let me fix that for you: "Some societies have policies and tradeoffs that offer significant benefits to the average citizen, and that ruined me for living in other societies (even of similar wealth) that are not that progressive."

Switzerland will not allow you to join its society unless you bring a lot to the table to start (highly skilled worker). They only allow the most qualified candidates so they get to reap the benefits of that.

It's the same thing as saying, "Working at Google has ruined me for working at other companies."

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