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Should gifted students go to a separate school?

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Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#251

Post by [deleted] »

pawn wrote: post #218
CodeCube wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The very gifted kids are going to isolate themselves from the dumb people as quickly as they can as soon as they can no matter what you do. This is quite an anecdote you've got there ... cause in my experience (gifted, and in gifted classes with many much brighter than me), all of us kept a pretty diverse (academically) social group. But that's _my_ anecdote ... surely people will exist on the entire spectrum betwe…

My anecdote matches yours. In highschool I was one of the higher-ranked people in my class, but I got along better with guys on the lower-end of the scale. Despite getting terrible grades, they often had a surprisingly quick wit that made them a pleasure to be around. Probably because they cared more about being funny than getting good grades. I sometimes wonder if it was motivation more than actual capacity that mad…

[deleted]

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#252

Post by bluGill »

aaronchall wrote: post #56
got2surf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College courses are a great option too (my school district allowed "dual enrollment" where you could take anywhere from one to all of your classes at one of the local community or state colleges). There are definitely some cases where the AP equivalent is "harder", better taught, or better suited to high-school age students, though. I agree that defining "advanced" is very challenging, and goes beyond just the academ…

I remember my decision making process: It seemed to me that if I took the dual/early enrollment college course that I would definitely get the credit, whereas the AP course would actually require far more repetitive homework, lots more class time (which I didn't want to do), and only then would I have a chance to qualify for college credit. That's a no-brainer, in my book, but so many of my peers refused to follow my…

I remember mine - I knew university was possible, but I had no idea how to get into the program. Latter it was explained to me that the school had to may for my classes so they would do everything they could to discourage students from taking that track without being obvious about it. They didn't allow any information to be in school, the guidance consular never mentioned it (not that I saw them).

By contrast AP was just a choice I could sign up for when choosing classes.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#253

Post by ltbarcly3 »

lol214365 wrote: post #120
ltbarcly3 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been inside a school? The stupid kids don't gather around to bask in the glow of the gifted kids. They DO gather around them and call them 'faggot' and trip them in the hallway, especially if they are smart but not athletic.

Only if you confound "dumb kid" and "problem kid". Certainly, get problem kids out of the equation, but that doesn't mean there isn't some benefit to different cognitive classes coming into contact with one another. If for no other reason, you don't want the cognitive elite going through life never knowing that the rest of the country are reasonable, functional people instead of fools and rubes.

Have you ever been to the DMV? The next time you go, look around at the other people you are in line with. That is 'the rest of the country' that you are talking about. They aren't especially functional or reasonable.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#254

Post by justin_vanw »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #148
TeMPOraL wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What stops the "smart kid school" from developing the same administrative problems as regular ones? Are "smart teachers" actually better at managing behaviour of pupils? Personally, I feel that the bullying problem might be less about individual teachers, and more about how the whole system is constructed.

There's simply much fewer bullies and problematic behavior in smart schools. It's not that the administration is better, it's that the administration doesn't have to be.

I disagree, you will find better administration.

Imagine you are a great principle/counselor/teacher. You can work anywhere, because you are great at your job. Do you choose to go to the school with the superintendent that is nearly illiterate and completely incompetent at the district where the kids regularly assault each other and the staff? Or do you choose to go to the school where the kids love to learn, love to read, love to study, and respect their teachers and their school?

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#255

Post by dkarapetyan »

stale2002 wrote: post #205
dkarapetyan wrote: post #170

No. There is something one learns by going to public schools and seeing all his fellow human beings held to the same standards. I grew up in Armenia in the post soviet union era. The one thing they got right was the education part. There were no distinctions. We all learned the same material, gifted or not. Those that lagged got extra attention and help. When I first got here the segregation of "gifted" vs "non-gifte…

OK, so if you are all learning the same material, what happens when someone learns all the material months before everyone else? Do they just sit around and do nothing? Is that really a productive use of their time?

I guess that would make them some kind of genius in which case they can start attending university.

I was learning matrix algebra in 4th grade based on the soviet system whereas everyone here was barely doing 2 + 2 = ? in some worksheet. Surprisingly folks managed to not be bored. If your standard is what the current system teaches then it's not hard to improve it and have people not be bored while still not drawing a distinction between "gifted" and "non-gifted".

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#256

Post by malynda »

bluGill wrote: post #231
John23832 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just make schools better for all, rather than replicating the educational resource hoarding that takes place in private schools?

You are missing the other half of the problem: what about the non-gifted. The majority of kids are average: they didn't get whatever it is that makes some people above average. They need the slower pace of school to learn, otherwise they won't learn. The right thing for an average student is not the same as what is right for either the gifted, or the "retarded" (I forget what the correct term is.

Do you mean handicapable?

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#257

Post by emidln »

rayiner wrote: post #18
jawns wrote: post #3

Here in the U.S., very few public high schools have single-track education, at least not for "core" subjects such as English, math, and science. There are typically remedial, standard, honors, and AP classes for these subjects. And I would think that if you're OK with multi-track education, it would seem like having a separate school for gifted students is just an extension of that. That said, in my own experience, a…

> Here in the U.S., very few public high schools have single-track education, at least not for "core" subjects such as English, math, and science. There are typically remedial, standard, honors, and AP classes for these subjects. It's not just curriculum, though. The whole structure of the school is usually oriented toward "managing the lowest common denominator." Grade schools have more in common with prisons than t…

My high school was mostly like this. "Block-8" scheduling was utilized, which resulted in four, roughly ninety minute classes per day, with our days alternating between an "A" and a "B". This provided for 8 classes per semester. Classes were typically broken up into 30-45 minutes of lecture and the remaining time for group work or individual study.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#258

Post by John23832 »

LordKano wrote: post #220
John23832 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just make schools better for all, rather than replicating the educational resource hoarding that takes place in private schools?

Why not just make schools better for all, rather than replicating the educational resource hoarding that takes place in private schools? Because we have working models for high performing specialty schools. We already have endless infighting about improving every school. And how do you define "better"? Is it a lower teacher to student ratio? Higher average test scores? Graduation percentage? Percentage of graduating…

> Because we have working models for high performing specialty schools.

So just because?

>"And how do you define "better"? Is it a lower teacher to student ratio? Higher average test scores? Graduation percentage? Percentage of graduating seniors accepted at 4 year colleges? Some other measure?"

There is no "better" for everyone. Rather than just segregating students (and requiring more teachers resources etc.), work to made education better for your students. Have different classes at different speeds.

>"I believe that I would have been better off in a separate school. I have chosen to send my children to a charter school for that reason."

That's fine, and that's your prerogative as a parent. However, to say that segregation of kids should be the norm is a dangerous. IMO reckless.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#259

Post by brightball »

Retric wrote: post #241
stale2002 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is "getting a good education" a negative effect? It is the opposite. If smart people do the things they need to do to become even smarter, everyone benefits.

Smaller schools have less educational diversity. Suppose you want a gifted and talented education, but also want to play baseball. At tiny schools that may not be an option, but at a larger school you can have upper tier classes and a wider range of clubs. EX: My high school had a swim team and a chess club. We had almost every AP class, lot's of general ed, even some handicapped students. When they split the school…

You're also assuming that such a shift must play in the current model. There's no reason that sports couldn't be separated into community activities totally separate from the educational aspects of multiple smaller schools.

I can't find the link, but I've heard strong arguments for models where school days are 4 hours long and kids go to community centers afterwards where they do homework, play sports, games, club activities, hikes, music lessons and just hangout. As a bonus, the people in these areas DON'T need a masters degree to do their job as we separate educational aspects of schools from social aspects.

Dozens of small schools could easily work together in a community under this model with changes in the classroom schools having no impact on the activity centers. You could even go to certain schools on different days for areas of specialization/interest being taught.

There are a whole world of possible options that open up if we don't lock in the model that we have today. IMO, it's not about defunding the schools. It's about WANTING to fund them.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#260

Post by brightball »

soundwave106 wrote: post #118
brightball wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just described why so many people support school choice and voucher policies. It is absolutely mind boggling to me how anyone can consider more options to be worse than a one size fits all model. EDIT: In keeping with the trend, took about 30 seconds to get downvoted.

Personally, the biggest concern I would have with school choice / voucher policies is maintaining accountability and quality standards. The recent fraud investigations in the USA for-profit college market (eg where several scam-ish type outfits churned out expensive but useless degrees to people lured in by slick marketing) absolutely shows that, sometimes, more options can be worse.

That could be really easily addressed. In order to accept voucher money, you must be a non-profit and your expenses must be transparent.

I agree that for-profit institutions have no place in education.

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