Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#151

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:16 PM UTC

always_good wrote: post #131

dgfgfdagasdfgfa wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it's kind of weird to feel anything about what others do with their time.

In a capitalist dystopia, I'd agree with you. But everywhere else, you cannot live without impacting the lives of other people. For example, let's say you choose to eat unhealthy food, become obese, and land in the hospital. You might say "who cares what other people eat" while you are using a limited, shared resource. If you're able to not work indefinitely because you're consuming a limited, shared resource like th…

[deleted]

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#152

Post by simonebrunozzi » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:20 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #18

In my opinion this is missing an important thing: Does the Swiss model scale? For example, the Singapore model can't scale. It's based on rich people and corporations arbitraging the international fiscal system. You can't have another Singapore without having another East Asia and West with it. Swiss is definitively a privileged place that is benefiting from the overall wealth of Europe and many other countries. We c…

I lived in Singapore for 2.5 years. You are absolutely right. Singapore can't scale.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#153

Post by dgfgfdagasdfgfa » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:20 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #127

dgfgfdagasdfgfa wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it's kind of weird to feel anything about what others do with their time.

Depends if they do it on your dime and in your country -- the one you're supposed to take care of because you live in it.

It's all one damn earth. People already take advantage of each other. Why worry about the person next door? At least they aren't trying to kill you.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#154

Post by geodel » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:20 PM UTC

PaulRobinson wrote: post #107

musha68k wrote: post #37

Somewhat expected in the more conservative midwest (the author is comparing her Zürich experience with living in Chicago) but apparently "unlimited vacation" seems to become increasingly common in the Bay Area at least.

I have a former colleague that on looking for a new role was offered "unlimited vacation". He asked what the limit was. "Unlimited", they replied. "Honestly?", he ventured. "Yes, unlimited". "OK, then", he said, "I'd like to book the entire year off". "Oh no, you can't do that!", they replied. "I thought so. So what's the limit?", he asked again. "There is no limit", they replied. "But you just said I couldn't have a…

I agree. I think of it more of flexible working arrangement. I work for 60-80 hrs/week for urgent releases and then disappeared for a month, maybe repeat this multiple time in an year. In traditional company it would be 40 hr / week and no month long vacations. In worse companies 60 hr/ week still no month long vacations.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#155

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:29 PM UTC

nwomack wrote: post #16

petercooper wrote: post #6

But in Switzerland, my husband's company gave employees six weeks of vacation a year. And yet, I find people get used to it and consider it normal rather than a great thing. I give my employees 36 days of paid vacation per year (7.2 weeks) and, yep, got complaints the other day when I suggested making December 22nd a mandatory holiday day(!) :-)

I think the complaint here (if I understand you correctly) is that you are giving a vacation day and then making a certain day mandatory to use it. This practice is common among companies and extremely infuriating and in my opinion should be illegal. Better to have 35 days paid and make december 22nd a company holiday.

[deleted]

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#156

Post by gvd » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:29 PM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #124

Strom wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before anyone thinks Switzerland is some bastion of democracy, I'd like to point out that they've been very conservative in some areas. Women didn't have federal voting rights until 1971, and received nation-wide local voting rights fairly recently in 1991. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage_in_Switzerlan...

If you run a democracy for nearly 850 years, it sort of looks a bit conservative. Progressivism != democracy. Athens as of 500AD were technically utterly democratic, and had slavery, let alone no voting rights for women. Progress can also be quite un-democratic. E.g. Soviet Union in 1920-30s progressed quickly to afford universal education, equal rights for women, let alone science and industry (especially military i…

Let me also point out that conservative in this case does not mean US conservative. US conservatism is slowly creeping towards theological conservatism.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#157

Post by SilasX » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:30 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #58

arjie wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of the world can do a lot of things when America develops drugs for them, protects them from harm, and designs new technology so humanity can progress. The peace that America has wrought across the world is unprecedented and, in doing so, she has made the world a safer place to trade than ever before. And trade greatly benefits nations like Switzerland. I'm not claiming they're freeloaders. This benefits us…

I'm sympathetic to your point, in general, but Switzerland is hardly a good example: > when America develops drugs for them, "Switzerland is home to many pharmaceutical companies, including very large groups, such as Novartis and Hoffmann-La Roche. In 2013, 41 life science companies had their international headquarters (and 29 more their regional headquarters) in Switzerland. The pharmaceutical industry in Switzerlan…

>The pharmaceutical industry in Switzerland directly and indirectly employs about 135,000 people. It contributes to 5.7% of the gross domestic product of Switzerland and contributes to 30% of the country's exports."

And those Swiss (or French, or Italian, or Japanese) pharma profits are also high, in large part, because some countries' citizens pay the "gouge" rates for those drugs. That's still consistent with the parent's point[1] that America is bearing the cost of these drugs, effectively subsidizing other countries that negotiate good deals.

[1] at least, a charitable generalization of it

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#158

Post by whazor » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #18

In my opinion this is missing an important thing: Does the Swiss model scale? For example, the Singapore model can't scale. It's based on rich people and corporations arbitraging the international fiscal system. You can't have another Singapore without having another East Asia and West with it. Swiss is definitively a privileged place that is benefiting from the overall wealth of Europe and many other countries. We c…

No, it only scales if you have mountains around your small country and do not have wars for 169 years. Their country is very protective and only works if you can ignore the rest of the world.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#159

Post by Florin_Andrei » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:49 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #18

In my opinion this is missing an important thing: Does the Swiss model scale? For example, the Singapore model can't scale. It's based on rich people and corporations arbitraging the international fiscal system. You can't have another Singapore without having another East Asia and West with it. Swiss is definitively a privileged place that is benefiting from the overall wealth of Europe and many other countries. We c…

Is this the old "we can't do this because we're too big/diverse/awesome" bogus argument?

Every time it's pointed out that Europe is a much better place for the middle class than America, you get all conservatives and/or all libertarians up in arms making up excuses for why America is supposedly unable to replicate that for various reasons.

With that can't do attitude, of course it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#160

Post by eatplayrove » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #114

I don't want a work-life balance. Sure, the Swiss model is very attractive for a person in a certain phase of life with a certain attitude toward work --- one for whom work is something distinct from life. Me? I want the freedom to pour myself into something I love. I'd rather spend 60 hours per week using all of my faculties to produce something worthwhile than to spend 35 or 40 hours just trading my time for money,…

I will consider what you said distinctly from the Swiss vs other models problem (because it is only slightly relevant).

I don't know how old you are, but I am assuming you are younger than me, and I would like to offer you some advice without (I hope) sounding patronizing.

Work-life balance is not about what you love vs hate. There are not too many people hanging around in hacker news that hate what they do for work, otherwise they wouldn't be checking here most likely. I would even go ahead and venture to say, around 20% percent of the people love what they do. But work is not the only thing you can love. You can love playing the piano, spending time with your girlfriend trekking, regularly having dinner with your parents every Monday, running a few times a week so on and so forth. Your view of the word 'love' is extremely one-dimensional, and life is too short for that. If developing is the only thing that you love, be my guest. But do not restrict yourself to just that, if you have the financial means.

Work-life balance is about the multi-dimensional aspect of life. You can (and in my opinion should) love many things, because there are so many things in life to love. Then work-life balance becomes about the maximization of an objective function whose variables are the hours you spend for each thing that you love, and the constraints involve (1) the minimum surplus of money you are OK with making given that you spend the hours in the variables, (2) the minimum amount of time you would like to spend for each thing, (3) the maximum amount you can spend. That's essentially life for everyone. The weights and the (1)+(2) constraints are dependent on the person (3) is a limitation of reality. People call the weights and (1)+(2) work-life balance. I hope this gives you a new perspective.