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How to Deal with Populism

caracaschronicles.com

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Re: How to Deal with Populism

#71

Post by choko »

beat wrote: post #64
whenwillitstop wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the real underlying issue is unemployment/underemployment" Why is a country that as high unemployment allowing high levels of immigration? Being mad about that seems highly rational to me

Why aren't citizens doing the jobs that immigrants do? That's a more rational question. Hiring immigrants isn't necessarily cheaper or easier. It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs otherwise.

"It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs otherwise."

What if they did something crazy, like offer higher wages to attract employees?

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#72

Post by michael_h »

mattmanser wrote: post #46
1_2__3 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, his whole argument can be boiled down to, "No but seriously they're racist you should ignore them."

people pretty much admit that it's not about immigration status ... but ethnicity That's a nice way of saying "everyone admitted they're racists". No-one in that thread did. The most ridiculous thing about all this is that I actually come from a white immigrant community (dutch around a port town), but my generation acculturised with the UK. It really sticks in your craw when I'm generally a left-leaning liberalist b…

Just to clarify: a white person in a supermarket speaking Polish is necessarily an immigrant?

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#73

Post by dlss »

ConfuciusSay02 wrote: post #60
sandworm101 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because populism leads very quicky to dark places. Most all systems of government, of vested authority and state monopoly of violence, are to address our instinct towards populism. Egging on the mob never ends well.

[citation needed] Populism by definition is closer to being synonymous with a functioning democracy that it is to mob rule.

It's not exactly a citation, but high school culture ("that which sounds cool should be done") doesn't exactly lead to the best of all possible places.

Looking for symmetric universal moral principals sort of does seem to. Though I admit basically no form of government seems to head in that direction, as founding documents post-revolution are not really a form of government in my model.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#74

Post by ConfuciusSay02 »

beat wrote: post #64
whenwillitstop wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the real underlying issue is unemployment/underemployment" Why is a country that as high unemployment allowing high levels of immigration? Being mad about that seems highly rational to me

Why aren't citizens doing the jobs that immigrants do? That's a more rational question. Hiring immigrants isn't necessarily cheaper or easier. It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs otherwise.

It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs... [at the slave wage offered]

That last part is rarely, if ever, mentioned when the "locals won't do these jobs" nonsense gets trotted out.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#75

Post by beat »

choko wrote: post #71
beat wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't citizens doing the jobs that immigrants do? That's a more rational question. Hiring immigrants isn't necessarily cheaper or easier. It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs otherwise.

"It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs otherwise." What if they did something crazy, like offer higher wages to attract employees?

They do. Dishwashing pays well above minimum wage in Minneapolis, for unskilled labor. They struggle to find staff.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#76

Post by beat »

ConfuciusSay02 wrote: post #74
beat wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't citizens doing the jobs that immigrants do? That's a more rational question. Hiring immigrants isn't necessarily cheaper or easier. It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs otherwise.

It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs... [at the slave wage offered] That last part is rarely, if ever, mentioned when the "locals won't do these jobs" nonsense gets trotted out.

Or in the case of skilled labor, locals can't do those jobs.

Is the reason there are so many immigrants in IT because the job doesn't pay well enough?

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#77

Post by lemmsjid »

alva wrote: post #6

How about addressing the widespread concerns that cause "populism" even if it means setting back your own ulterior agenda? Brexit and immigration is a good example of this. Blair decided mass immigration was a good idea for a number of reasons. At some point they surely realised that although it would provide an economic boost, some people would lose out financially and most did not want significant cultural change i…

The embedded powers will be very happy if Trump succeeds.

Fewer regulations will mean freer movement of capital, which has historically been a great boon for the wealthy and powerful.

If he manages to double down on coal production, the ensuing government subsidies will benefit those with the resources to capitalize on the undermining of the market (after all, any time you introduce predictability into the market, you are handing money to people who have the influence and resources to exploit it).

If he succeeds in building the wall, then he will have successfully shifted blame for existing economic woes onto Mexican migrants, without evidence, which will mean increased popular mandate for governmental power grabs.

If he succeeds in undermining climate change, he will have two benefits: first, he will have vanquished scientific and evidence-based opposition in general, and second, he will have undermined barriers between business and exploitation of known public health undermining scenarios.

If he succeeds in cowing the media, he will have removed one of the few non-governmental checks and balances on transparency of government.

Finally, if he succeeds in general, it will be at the expense of the already tenuous necessity for politicians to tie their agendas to evidence/science-based approaches to policy creation.

I say all of this not as an inveterate liberal, but as someone who is continually bewildered by the fact that Trump can make things up, without evidence, and have sufficient support to transform them into public policy. Actually I should cop to the fact that I'm not that bewildered--history is of course littered with leaders who have done the same, and whether or not they actually benefit the people who brought them to power is really an analyst's roulette game.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#78

Post by ConfuciusSay02 »

beat wrote: post #76
ConfuciusSay02 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs... [at the slave wage offered] That last part is rarely, if ever, mentioned when the "locals won't do these jobs" nonsense gets trotted out.

Or in the case of skilled labor, locals can't do those jobs. Is the reason there are so many immigrants in IT because the job doesn't pay well enough?

Perhaps it has something to do with the institutionalized abuse of the immigration system in order to import workers who are paid less and are far less likely to leave or demand higher wages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

The idea that there is a STEM shortage is a bonafide myth. Remember that we're talking about the same industry that perpetuated the largest wage fixing cartel in human history.

It's amazing how many people around here just can't wrap their heads around the fact that increased labor supply means lower wages. You only have to listen to a handful of earnings calls with giant corporations talking with glee about how elastic the labor markets are, and how that will be a huge boon to their earnings.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#79

Post by choko »

beat wrote: post #75
choko wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs otherwise." What if they did something crazy, like offer higher wages to attract employees?

They do. Dishwashing pays well above minimum wage in Minneapolis, for unskilled labor. They struggle to find staff.

To me, that suggests that even though they offer well above minimum wage, they haven't arrived at a fair market value yet.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#80

Post by shuntress »

rayiner wrote: post #43
bryanlarsen wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is a great example to pick of technocrat vs populist. Left technocrats see immigration as a human rights issue. Freedom of movement is a well-recognized fundamental human right; your ability to move from Gloucester to London is enshrined in Britain's unwritten constitution. Left technocrats do not see the movement from Paris to London to be any different than the movement from Gloucester to London. Right…

It's also a human rights issue from the populist side. Self determination--the right of groups of people to choose the structure of their society--is also a human right. Society is a very intimate thing. It's a group of people consenting to share each others' burdens as well as rewards; it's a group of people giving up individual autonomy and consenting to be governed by the will of the group. Immigration without con…

So that makes it OK when we, as a group, decide that brown people don't deserve to live happy healthy lives because they are taking our jobs.
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