Should gifted students go to a separate school? • Hacker News Board

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#101

Post by Aqueous » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 5:46 PM UTC

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #100

Aqueous wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4. This idea that education is only for my own individual welfare has to end. It's creating a culture of individual atomism that is instilling the most anti-social, selfish values and corroding the country at its roots. We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If you're smart, you set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from t…

Have you ever been inside a school? The stupid kids don't gather around to bask in the glow of the gifted kids. They DO gather around them and call them 'faggot' and trip them in the hallway, especially if they are smart but not athletic.

That's a failure of the school administration and disciplinary processes, and separating kids from each other based on perceived or measured intelligence is not going to solve it. Bullies are going to find a target whether there's a geek there or not. This is an argument for strict enforcement of anti-bullying policies, not isolating groups of kids from each other.

As someone who has been bullied in the past, I never thought the solution was avoidance. Our schools have to improve on all counts. Segregating students on any criteria is the opposite of the solution.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#102

Post by WhoBeI » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 5:46 PM UTC

Right, but aren't the groupings supposed to be called Erudite, Abnegation, Amity, Dauntless and other silly names like that. Intellectual, social, creative and physical sound so bland. :)

Seriously though: I'm not against separate classes but dislike the idea of separate schools. Mostly because of where the best teachers, and budget, will be and what effect that will have on the less fortunate.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#103

Post by WhoBeI » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 5:47 PM UTC

Right, but aren't the groupings supposed to be called Erudite, Abnegation, Amity, Dauntless and other silly names like that. Intellectual, social, creative and physical sound so bland. :)

Seriously though: I'm not against separate classes but dislike the idea of separate schools. Mostly because of where the best teachers, and budget, will be and what effect that will have on the less fortunate.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#104

Post by eastWestMath » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 5:47 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #94

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

I agree with the second especially. The whole point of School is to prepare you for the world we live in (it's effectiveness in many aspects is highly up for debate, but that's another discussion) and you will frequently find yourself in Real Life having to deal with people not necessarily like you. Further isolating people into given groups is only going to increase the social fracturing we already see taking place.…

It's pretty crazy. I'm a Canadian and went to public schools through school, now I'm doing my PhD. When I'm at summer schools or conferences with Americans, it's like half of those students had only ever interacted with other people in gifted programs at private schools.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#105

Post by ltbarcly3 » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 5:49 PM UTC

Aqueous wrote: post #101

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been inside a school? The stupid kids don't gather around to bask in the glow of the gifted kids. They DO gather around them and call them 'faggot' and trip them in the hallway, especially if they are smart but not athletic.

That's a failure of the school administration and disciplinary processes, and separating kids from each other based on perceived or measured intelligence is not going to solve it. Bullies are going to find a target whether there's a geek there or not. This is an argument for strict enforcement of anti-bullying policies, not isolating groups of kids from each other. As someone who has been bullied in the past, I never…

Yet another reason to concentrate those smarter kids so that the people with the most potential don't have it wasted by being forced to go to a school with a failed administration.

In a perfect world we would make all our schools great, but I think you'll find that this is harder to actually do than it is to say, and in the meantime it is very easy to get great teachers to work with gifted students.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#106

Post by employee8000 » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 5:49 PM UTC

Aqueous wrote: post #93

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

4. This idea that education is only for my own individual welfare has to end. It's creating a culture of individual atomism that is instilling the most anti-social, selfish values and corroding the country at its roots. We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If you're smart, you set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from t…

This is unadulterated bullshit. The idea that we are supposed to teach each other is science fiction that you just made up.

We need smart people in society so that we can advance. They are the leaders that will help move the needle. If we burden our best and brightest young people with "educating" their peers then we as a society lose out. The gifted children should be free to learn at their own pace so that as they get older they have developed expertise that the regular people will never achieve.

This isn't communist Russia. We don't gain anything by throttling the motivation of gifted kids except making the regular kids feel better about themselves.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#107

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 5:49 PM UTC

Aqueous wrote: post #101

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been inside a school? The stupid kids don't gather around to bask in the glow of the gifted kids. They DO gather around them and call them 'faggot' and trip them in the hallway, especially if they are smart but not athletic.

That's a failure of the school administration and disciplinary processes, and separating kids from each other based on perceived or measured intelligence is not going to solve it. Bullies are going to find a target whether there's a geek there or not. This is an argument for strict enforcement of anti-bullying policies, not isolating groups of kids from each other. As someone who has been bullied in the past, I never…

[deleted]

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#108

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 5:50 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #71

dijit wrote: post #2

Absolutely. I'm going to sound very self-centered and certainly not humble but when I was enrolled in mandatory education I was doing so under Tony Blair's Labour government. This government was elected under premises such as nationalisation and additionally "Education, Education, Education"[0]. As such no child was allowed to fail school. This had the opposite affect in my primary school, instead of segregating the…

You just described why so many people support school choice and voucher policies. It is absolutely mind boggling to me how anyone can consider more options to be worse than a one size fits all model. EDIT: In keeping with the trend, took about 30 seconds to get downvoted.

> It is absolutely mind boggling to me how anyone can consider more options to be worse than a one size fits all model.

It's pretty simple, really: you're looking from your own, self-centered perspective. From the point of view of the society, it may be desirable to restrict options available to individuals in order to mitigate negative effects of everyone making self-interested choices.

Whether or not options should be restricted in schooling is a topic for cost/benefit analysis, but as a general point, I don't see anything mind-boggling about this perspective.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#109

Post by _m8fo » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 5:55 PM UTC

employee8000 wrote: post #106

Aqueous wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4. This idea that education is only for my own individual welfare has to end. It's creating a culture of individual atomism that is instilling the most anti-social, selfish values and corroding the country at its roots. We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If you're smart, you set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from t…

This is unadulterated bullshit. The idea that we are supposed to teach each other is science fiction that you just made up. We need smart people in society so that we can advance. They are the leaders that will help move the needle. If we burden our best and brightest young people with "educating" their peers then we as a society lose out. The gifted children should be free to learn at their own pace so that as they…

You believe that the brightest children helping their more unenlightened peers will result in society losing out?

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#110

Post by AbcLala » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 5:55 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

Gifted means generally high IQ. While one can trained and raise its IQ, from my understanding, it can help just for a few points.

I can relate to the IQ wall in communication, I can relate to fail education, I can relate to stupid people with great education, I am lucky to have a good paying job considering my lack of formal education.

If not properly handled, above than average IQ is actually more a problem than a great asset in western system (I won't talk about Asian countries, as I don't have first hand experience but the competition mindset should help)