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Should gifted students go to a separate school?

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Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#91

Post by alistairSH »

greggman wrote: post #70
iplaw wrote: post #7

Yes. Without a single doubt. I attended the long-running #1 public school in the nation. The School for the Talented and Gifted Magnet High School in Dallas, TX. The environment fostered creativity and learning. There were no distractions or negative pressures or stressors. Being smart didn't result in being bullied, it resulted in being respected.

That's great. I wish we could figure out how to change the culture in general though. Some cultures in the world value smarts. USA culture generally does not

USA culture generally does not [value smarts]

That's a very broad generalization. Yes, there are areas where education is not seen as a positive.

But, looking at trends in our major suburban areas, I think you're way off base. It is increasingly difficult to gain admission to the top state colleges in many areas of the nation because of overwhelming demand. This in turn has led to a massive increase in the number of after-school tutoring programs, math enrichment programs, expansion of AP/honors course availability, etc.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#93

Post by Aqueous »

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

4. This idea that education is only for my own individual welfare has to end. It's creating a culture of individual atomism that is instilling the most anti-social, selfish values and corroding the country at its roots.

We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If you're smart, you set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from the presence of 'smart' students just as 'smart' students gain from presence of kids who aren't labelled 'smart.'

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#94

Post by FussyZeus »

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

I agree with the second especially. The whole point of School is to prepare you for the world we live in (it's effectiveness in many aspects is highly up for debate, but that's another discussion) and you will frequently find yourself in Real Life having to deal with people not necessarily like you. Further isolating people into given groups is only going to increase the social fracturing we already see taking place.

Not to mention organizing people by intelligence is a shaky proposition at best, given our current best assessment, the IQ rating, is already proving to be inadequate as an objective measurement.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#95

Post by justin_vanw »

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

1. This is a Harrison Bergeron argument. "We can't let people move quickly, because it might be unfair to other people." Effectively this means denying the people you can identify because there are going to be other 'deserving' people you don't identify. Replace 'education' with 'food' and see if this logic holds up: "We shouldn't feed the people we know are hungry, because other people might be hungry and now they would be disadvantaged because they would be more sickly and weak compared to the people we fed."

2. This is an argument that basically 'every kind of diversity is automatically good' or something. Dumb kids don't benefit from being around very gifted kids. They do see the very gifted kids and feel bad. The very gifted kids are going to isolate themselves from the dumb people as quickly as they can as soon as they can no matter what you do.

3. Smart people do well and often have smart children. They understand education because they have greater than average experience with education and a better ability to apply that knowledge. They will not stick around 'the worst schools' no matter how much you try to force them by handicapping smart kids. It's a free country, they will pull their kids out of bad schools. I think you'll find that parents are very uninterested in your theories of social engineering and much more interested in making sure their kids are given everything they need.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#96

Post by hawkice »

Aqueous wrote: post #93
habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

4. This idea that education is only for my own individual welfare has to end. It's creating a culture of individual atomism that is instilling the most anti-social, selfish values and corroding the country at its roots. We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If you're smart, you set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from t…

> We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If we're smart, we set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from the presence of 'smart' students and 'smart' students gain from theirs.

So, if we trap the geeks where they can be bullied and beaten, they'll understand what the real world is like better? I'll be real with you, I've never been hated for expertise or diligence in real life, not like the way bullies work today, which is way worse than it was for me. And I know where some of those bullies end up. They did not benefit from their jeering and hatred. Can we stop using this to justify the torture of society's most promising youths?

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#97

Post by JDazzle »

As a most definitely non-gifted student, I wonder what the impact of removing gifted students from the school? I've seen gifted students help others succeed through tutoring or even by providing a role model for others to look up to.

I believe having a gifted student in a regular school benefits the entire school and may help them in learning other, more social skills.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#98

Post by chuckcode »

In my experience learning is not a "one size fits all" product product, or even fits most. I'd really like to see schools have more resources and expertise to address different kids learning styles and aptitudes as I have yet to see a single style of teaching that works for all kids. Ideally they wouldn't have to go to different schools as I think it is good socially to learn to interact with all different types of people from an early age.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#99

Post by searine »

Growing up a lot of my friends went to a "gifted and talented" science magnet school, while I got left behind at a "normal" public school.

Now that we're all adults, I've out achieved all of them in terms of science/tech aptitude/contribution.

"Gifted and Talented" is a trophy label for suburban parents. That's it.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#100

Post by ltbarcly3 »

Aqueous wrote: post #93
habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

4. This idea that education is only for my own individual welfare has to end. It's creating a culture of individual atomism that is instilling the most anti-social, selfish values and corroding the country at its roots. We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If you're smart, you set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from t…

Have you ever been inside a school? The stupid kids don't gather around to bask in the glow of the gifted kids. They DO gather around them and call them 'faggot' and trip them in the hallway, especially if they are smart but not athletic.
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