Should gifted students go to a separate school? • Hacker News Board

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#11

Post by jmduke » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 3:58 PM UTC

I know this article is Australia-centric, but most US schools, to my knowledge, have multi-track educational programs (gifted students can take more advanced courses, take Honors/IB/AP, etc. etc.) which have separate curricula and teachers. In this respect, they're already in a separate program: having them go to a separate school entirely just hurts socialization between groups of students, which is more important for a child's development.

Overall, this seems like an unhelpful place to invest compared to more fundamental educational issues (and, pragmatically, I can see many areas where this goes awry, ie many aptitude tests for kids being biased for socioeconomic reaosns).

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#12

Post by 67726e » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 3:58 PM UTC

stinky613 wrote: post #5

dijit wrote: post #2

Absolutely. I'm going to sound very self-centered and certainly not humble but when I was enrolled in mandatory education I was doing so under Tony Blair's Labour government. This government was elected under premises such as nationalisation and additionally "Education, Education, Education"[0]. As such no child was allowed to fail school. This had the opposite affect in my primary school, instead of segregating the…

But, on the flip side, faster-learning kids need to learn how to live/work/deal with slower-learning kids and vice versa. The purpose of schooling goes beyond the accumulation of facts.

Nice in theory, doesn't work in practice. At least growing up where I did, a lot of the "slow" kids weren't slow. They just didn't give a fuck and would disrupt the class. No one needs to "learn" to deal with that bullshit. I don't have to deal with disruptive assholes in the real world.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#13

Post by k-mcgrady » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 3:59 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #2

Absolutely. I'm going to sound very self-centered and certainly not humble but when I was enrolled in mandatory education I was doing so under Tony Blair's Labour government. This government was elected under premises such as nationalisation and additionally "Education, Education, Education"[0]. As such no child was allowed to fail school. This had the opposite affect in my primary school, instead of segregating the…

>> "before my time there were English Grammar schools which were done away with"

I'm not 100% sure but I believe these were similar to Northern Irish grammar schools where at the end of primary school you took an exam to determine if you could go to the grammar school or if you would go to the standard high school. I went through this system. Recently they have been slowly removing it and personally I go back and forth on whether that is a good idea. The biggest issue is that the amount of pressure placed on 10/11 year olds to pass that exam and get into a grammar school, not to mention the 18 months or so of preparation is very high. Too high arguably. It also fails children who don't do well with standardised exams. I know people who failed that exam but were lucky enough to still get into a grammar school and who did very well.

A better system may be having one school with optional advanced classes (we even had this for GCSE Maths/Advanced Maths in out grammar school). That way people can take advanced courses in the areas they naturally excel at rather than hindering their entire education by denying them the higher quality teaching at a grammar school.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#14

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 4:00 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #2

Absolutely. I'm going to sound very self-centered and certainly not humble but when I was enrolled in mandatory education I was doing so under Tony Blair's Labour government. This government was elected under premises such as nationalisation and additionally "Education, Education, Education"[0]. As such no child was allowed to fail school. This had the opposite affect in my primary school, instead of segregating the…

[deleted]

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#15

Post by KiwiCoder » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 4:01 PM UTC

This article frames the question rhetorically. Of course we should not disadvantage gifted children by depriving them of tailored learning strategies etc. Why on earth would we even consider it?

But it's not so easy to define what this means in practice, particularly in the UK where the debate over selective schooling is bound up with issues related to class and wealth.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#16

Post by germinalphrase » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 4:04 PM UTC

Alternatively, why not just allow advanced students to graduate and start college/career early, if they so desire. I know this happens in exceptional cases, but why force a kid to just load up with AP classes (which may - but probably do not - match college level rigor) rather than simply taking college courses? If they're past what high school can offer then let them finish and leave. We keep far too many students in high school longer than they want/need to be. Most - in my experience - just start to coast at that point.

A separate school for "advanced" students doesn't outright bother me; however, I think defining "advanced" is more challenging than most would initially consider. There are many reasons that a student may be ahead/behind at any point in their education.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#17

Post by jmduke » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 4:04 PM UTC

jawns wrote: post #3

Here in the U.S., very few public high schools have single-track education, at least not for "core" subjects such as English, math, and science. There are typically remedial, standard, honors, and AP classes for these subjects. And I would think that if you're OK with multi-track education, it would seem like having a separate school for gifted students is just an extension of that. That said, in my own experience, a…

I strongly agree that the benefits of exposing students to a wide variety of mindsets, abilities and experiences is just as valuable, if not more valuable, than being able to tailor curricula to fit the ability of students perfectly.

I think the ideal is a little bit of both: strong multi-track curricula with common social ground + experiences.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#18

Post by rayiner » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

jawns wrote: post #3

Here in the U.S., very few public high schools have single-track education, at least not for "core" subjects such as English, math, and science. There are typically remedial, standard, honors, and AP classes for these subjects. And I would think that if you're OK with multi-track education, it would seem like having a separate school for gifted students is just an extension of that. That said, in my own experience, a…

> Here in the U.S., very few public high schools have single-track education, at least not for "core" subjects such as English, math, and science. There are typically remedial, standard, honors, and AP classes for these subjects.

It's not just curriculum, though. The whole structure of the school is usually oriented toward "managing the lowest common denominator." Grade schools have more in common with prisons than they do with any other societal institution.

Imagine a school with a few fixed lectures during the day, self-directed study time built in, and the ability to take a break or get a snack at the student's convenience. That's basically college for most people, but a lot of kids are mature enough to handle something like that at a much younger age.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#19

Post by ng12 » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

jmduke wrote: post #11

I know this article is Australia-centric, but most US schools, to my knowledge, have multi-track educational programs (gifted students can take more advanced courses, take Honors/IB/AP, etc. etc.) which have separate curricula and teachers. In this respect, they're already in a separate program: having them go to a separate school entirely just hurts socialization between groups of students, which is more important f…

The problem in the US is that the AP kids get shafted because so much of the budget is spent on running a glorified daycare for the kids who really don't want to be there.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#20

Post by caseysoftware » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

jawns wrote: post #3

Here in the U.S., very few public high schools have single-track education, at least not for "core" subjects such as English, math, and science. There are typically remedial, standard, honors, and AP classes for these subjects. And I would think that if you're OK with multi-track education, it would seem like having a separate school for gifted students is just an extension of that. That said, in my own experience, a…

While it's heavily maligned, this was one of the points of The Bell Curve.

200 years ago, the smartest and dumbest person both probably lived and died on the same farm. 100 years ago, it wasn't noticeably different. Around the 1920s/30s, society started segmenting the higher end out into higher education and then completely different career/life paths. Fast forward another 50 years and people on the higher and lower ends of intellect rarely meet.

Think of the people you interact with on a daily basis - unless you're doing things completely outside the realm of intellect - and you'll start to realize that the vast majority of them aren't far off from you intellectually. This applies at the top and bottom.