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My personal fight against the modern laptop [video]

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Re: My personal fight against the modern laptop [video]

#51

Post by Shikadi »

TurboHaskal wrote: post #46
kk_cz wrote: post #3

He's right about the new keyboards on ThinkPads - fortunately I use mine with dock and external keyboard most of the time, but every time I am forced to use it without dock it's infuriating how much worse the keyboard is compared to older models.

Some of us like the new Thinkpad keyboards.

Yup, I love my keyboard on my Thinkpad Yoga 15. Though since it's a 15 inch laptop, my fn keys are grouped by 4, I have a full num pad, and the key spacing feels correct. I went through four laptops before this one and kept returning them because either their keyboard was literally poop and didn't pick up the spacebar all the time, or the screen was so flimsy I didn't trust it in a backpack. The HP Spectra was really nice, but it was too small and the keyboard was the worst. They've improved the keyboard a tiny bit since then, but it's still mediocre, especially for a premium model.

Re: My personal fight against the modern laptop [video]

#52

Post by valuearb »

0xADADA wrote: post #23

This talk expresses many of my concerns with desktop & laptop hardware over the last few years. Recently however, Apple has changed their hardware design philosophy from a fairly open platform to a more proprietary and disposable one. They’ve eliminated the ability to change or upgrade components. The 3rd generation MacBooks have a battery that is glued in place, the memory is soldered directly to the logic board. La…

Computers are on the end of a long road to becoming appliances. Apple has been at the forefront of this. My Macbook Pro is glued together, hard or impossible to upgrade, etc. It's also been an excellent laptop, impervious to being dropped (many times) and is far from obsolete 3 years after I purchased it. Were I to resell it now I'd still get most of my purchase cost back.

Re: My personal fight against the modern laptop [video]

#53

Post by psankar »

justinsaccount wrote: post #35
psankar wrote: post #10

The new thinkpad keyboards are absolutely shitty. I am happy that more people are complaining about it. The classic thinkpad keyboard had nice ergonomic aspects. You can touch-type the function keys without looking down, because they are all grouped in four. The arrow keys are proper sized buttons (even the macbook has it wrong). There is a slight curvature on each key's surface that makes it easy for the finger to f…

> You can touch-type the function keys without looking down, because they are all grouped in four. This is true. The new Fkeys are not grouped. > The arrow keys are proper sized buttons (even the macbook has it wrong). This is false, look at the linked image[1] and tell me that the arrow keys are different on the new keyboard. > There is a slight curvature on each key's surface that makes it easy for the finger to fe…

> This is false, look at the linked image[1] and tell me that the arrow keys are different on the new keyboard.

Notice the difference between the old and new keyboards, in the ratio of the difference between the touchable area of the arrow keys (up and down) with the control key. Also in the old keyboard, on the top of the down arrow key, there is a line which will help feel the difference in the keys. In the new keyboard, that plastic line on the down key is moved to the bottom. If I keep the finger in the keyboard, it is not easy for me to feel if I am in the up key or the down key without looking at the keyboard. This is my personal thing and you may not feel the same.

> The chicklet keys are slightly concave

The keyboard that I tried is almost flat. Even if it was slightly concave, they are no way close to the original curviness in the classic keyboard. Even in your image you can see that. That curvature is clearly feel-able for my fingers.

> This is subjective.

Agreed. All these are subjective. I just stated my opinion. We don't have to agree :) I did a typing test and I was able to reach about 100 words per minute in the old keyboard but could go only up to 80 words or so. I was using the old keyboard for long. It is possible that I would have reached the same speed with the chiclet keyboard too if I had spent more time, but I have lost interest with the new keyboard by then.

Re: My personal fight against the modern laptop [video]

#54

Post by justinsaccount »

inanutshellus wrote: post #44
justinsaccount wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can touch-type the function keys without looking down, because they are all grouped in four. This is true. The new Fkeys are not grouped. > The arrow keys are proper sized buttons (even the macbook has it wrong). This is false, look at the linked image[1] and tell me that the arrow keys are different on the new keyboard. > There is a slight curvature on each key's surface that makes it easy for the finger to fe…

Caveat: I'm entirely going off your image[1]. I have neither laptop. >> The arrow keys are proper sized buttons (even the macbook has it wrong). > This is false, look at the linked image[1] and tell me that the arrow keys are different on the new keyboard. Looks like the old laptop has a different height for Left, Right, and Down compared to Up, PageUp, PageDown. Is that really the case? If so, that'd be a pretty not…

> Just going off the shadow from your image, there's a marked and well-defined difference between the concavity. If my fingers were used to that concavity, I'd be unhappy with the much, much flatter design.

They are a little less concave than the older keys, but they aren't flat. The lighting in that picture isn't the same for both laptops. [1] is a better angle.

> That said, I thought it was pretty bad-ass you had both laptops and took a photo for us.

It's not my photo, though I do have a t420s and an x230, just not an x220 :-)

[1] http://blog.lenovo.com/images/uploads/blog/CS12KBD_180degree...

Re: My personal fight against the modern laptop [video]

#55

Post by valuearb »

branchless wrote: post #25
0xADADA wrote: post #23

This talk expresses many of my concerns with desktop & laptop hardware over the last few years. Recently however, Apple has changed their hardware design philosophy from a fairly open platform to a more proprietary and disposable one. They’ve eliminated the ability to change or upgrade components. The 3rd generation MacBooks have a battery that is glued in place, the memory is soldered directly to the logic board. La…

I'll never understand this. If you want value for money why even look at apple? Never mind nuances like planned obsolescence.

My current MacBook has over 2,000 hours use. I probably paid an extra $500 to get it over a similar dell, so it's cost me 25 cents an hour more. What did I get for that?

1) The ability to run 3 operating systems, and the best laptop operating system, MacOSX. I mostly run MacOSX, but still write shell scripts, use Unix applications, and occasionally run Windows 10 when I have an application that's not on the Mac, but only under protest because MacOSX is so good.

2) Excellent build quality, I've dropped it numerous times without a chip, crack or problem.

3) Retina screen, high resolution that is easy on my eyes, no tiny fonts or misshapen images. Plus while I have Retina on my main screen I'm coding on two 24 inch monitors connected to it.

4) Magsafe.

5) Excellent ergonomics. Trackpad, keyboard are top notch.

6) Far fewer worries about viruses.

7) Far from being quickly obsolescent, Apple computers retain their value far better and longer than other manufacturers. Mine is three years old and I'm no where near considering replacing it.

8) etc. etc

I bill $85 an hour. Has my productivity been enhanced more than 1/4 of 1%? Way more. Have I gotten more work because of the quality of my projects? you betcha.

Any professional who requires a computer to do their job should always buy the best possible computer to do it with. The extra cost is trivial in comparison to professional wages, the benefits in higher performance are always easily justifiable.

If you work a minimum wage job, sure, get the cheapest computer that meets your needs, that makes sense to.

Re: My personal fight against the modern laptop [video]

#56

Post by justinsaccount »

floatboth wrote: post #49
psankar wrote: post #10

The new thinkpad keyboards are absolutely shitty. I am happy that more people are complaining about it. The classic thinkpad keyboard had nice ergonomic aspects. You can touch-type the function keys without looking down, because they are all grouped in four. The arrow keys are proper sized buttons (even the macbook has it wrong). There is a slight curvature on each key's surface that makes it easy for the finger to f…

Have you actually tried the new keyboards? The X240 chiclet keyboard is excellent, I enjoy every moment of typing on it. The only better keyboards are the mechanical ones, which are way too thick for a laptop. (And function keys ARE grouped in four!!!)

> (And function keys ARE grouped in four!!!)

Ah, looks like just the 30 series lacked the grouping, they brought it back on the 40 series.

Re: My personal fight against the modern laptop [video]

#57

Post by PascLeRasc »

elbrian wrote: post #48
TurboHaskal wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. I have a 2015 13" Macbook Pro and returned an XPS 13 to buy a Thinkpad x250. As much as I want to root for the underdogs I have to admit that Apple is on a league of its own.

Would you care to elaborate a bit? In terms of build quality, the 2015+ XPS line is comparable (at least) to any Mac laptop offering.

Screen hinge is a big deal to me. My '14 rMBP can be opened while on a desk with one hand and the screen never moves even during furious typing, and I really like that. I work with someone who just got a 13" XPS and his screen wobbles quite a bit.

Re: My personal fight against the modern laptop [video]

#58

Post by PascLeRasc »

valuearb wrote: post #55
branchless wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll never understand this. If you want value for money why even look at apple? Never mind nuances like planned obsolescence.

My current MacBook has over 2,000 hours use. I probably paid an extra $500 to get it over a similar dell, so it's cost me 25 cents an hour more. What did I get for that? 1) The ability to run 3 operating systems, and the best laptop operating system, MacOSX. I mostly run MacOSX, but still write shell scripts, use Unix applications, and occasionally run Windows 10 when I have an application that's not on the Mac, but…

Yeah, I had done web development for a bit on Windows, but when I got my Macbook 2 years ago it really took off not having to wrestle with cygwin and short battery life. I'm still a student but I have a part-time well-paying job right now that's partially thanks to a great OS and hardware.

Re: My personal fight against the modern laptop [video]

#59

Post by branchless »

valuearb wrote: post #55
branchless wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll never understand this. If you want value for money why even look at apple? Never mind nuances like planned obsolescence.

My current MacBook has over 2,000 hours use. I probably paid an extra $500 to get it over a similar dell, so it's cost me 25 cents an hour more. What did I get for that? 1) The ability to run 3 operating systems, and the best laptop operating system, MacOSX. I mostly run MacOSX, but still write shell scripts, use Unix applications, and occasionally run Windows 10 when I have an application that's not on the Mac, but…

all laptops are pretty cheap if you have a decent job, I don't think that plays into value for money. I'd go with a cheap dell with linux every time, and if you want it beefed up buy a more expensive dell. I always buy 2nd hand too, way cheaper, fungible as there are so many floating around if you need spare parts it's easy.

If you are a graphics designer perhaps retina display matters, as a developer which you also seem to be I don't ever think "wow the font rendering is holding me back".

And linux has few viruses etc.

Re: My personal fight against the modern laptop [video]

#60

Post by kk_cz »

Shikadi wrote: post #51
TurboHaskal wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us like the new Thinkpad keyboards.

Yup, I love my keyboard on my Thinkpad Yoga 15. Though since it's a 15 inch laptop, my fn keys are grouped by 4, I have a full num pad, and the key spacing feels correct. I went through four laptops before this one and kept returning them because either their keyboard was literally poop and didn't pick up the spacebar all the time, or the screen was so flimsy I didn't trust it in a backpack. The HP Spectra was really…

The point is not that it's not better compared to other brands (it mostly is). The point is that it used to be better.
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