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Ask HN: What sort of side-projects are useful for getting jobs?

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Re: Ask HN: What sort of side-projects are useful for getting jobs?

#151

Post by bsvalley »

serge2k wrote: post #133
bsvalley wrote: post #21

From my own experience dealing with all kinds of companies. If you aim for C-level companies (IBM, Banks, Oracle, Walmart, etc.) then you don't need to spend time building side projects. They simply don't care. For B-level companies like Uber, Airbnb, Dropbox and everything in between low and high skilled engineers, it's crucial to have a product of your own out there. They hire mostly young engineers with no profess…

> Now, for A-level companies like Google, Apple, FB, etc. it's actually better to do what you do! Bull-fucking-shit. Google and Facebook are the poster children for algorithm based interviews. They don't give 2 shits about what you have done because it wasn't done at Google, so it counts for nothing. Now go solve another pointless dynamic programming problem you waste of skin.

Funny comment :) Looks like someone got rejected a few times. The point here is to land an interview first. I can't name one single engineer who wrote "algorithm and data structure" on his/her Resume. Do you? If you do have a nice github profile it'll help you get into the hiring process. AND THEN we can start talking about the actual interview content.

It's all about separating the good from the bad.

Re: Ask HN: What sort of side-projects are useful for getting jobs?

#152

Post by ChuckMcM »

mindcrime wrote: post #44
ChuckMcM wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably varies from place to place but in the Bay Area at least you pretty much have to get a degree of some sort. There are so many programmers out there that the degree/no-degree has become an easy filter for recruiting types and no-degree + no experience (which means no one to talk to about how you work and what it is like to work with you) makes it doubly difficult. That said, it doesn't have to be a degree f…

Silicon Valley used to be famous for the exact opposite: the story was always that formal credentials were less important than demonstrated competence. Have things really changed that much? Anyway, at least here on the East Coast, I find that many (most?) companies don't have a strict requirement regarding a degree. At least, not if you have real world experience. Maybe it's more crucial if you're going for your firs…

I certainly agree that formal credentials are secondary to demonstrated competence, but in the specific case of neither credentials nor experience, people with credentials and no experience have always had the first choice at the job.

When you have neither, getting a job in uncertain, there are many variables outside of your control. But getting a degree is completely within your control so it is the better choice of your time. Given the monetary constraint ($3,600 / year for community college (x2) and $7,500/year (x2) for state college) From my experience the job you will get in year 4 (and during the summers of year 3 and 4) will pay you more and offer better advancement than if you had started working in year 1 and not pursued a credential.

If you already have experience, then you also already have a network of people who have worked with you and know what you can do, and getting a job is a matter of finding the person in your network who will vouch for you.

Re: Ask HN: What sort of side-projects are useful for getting jobs?

#153

Post by pdimitar »

stonemetal wrote: post #51
cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #10

Here's a piece of advice from actual experience (from both sides): Invest your time studying for interviews than wasting time building side projects if you're doing this purely for getting a job, period. In my experience, companies don't care about your little side project when hiring--that is, unless your "little side project" had some huge impact or is something they have been aware of--the best you could get is "h…

This reflects my experience 90%. One time I contacted a company in a whose hiring thread here on HN. They asked if I had code on github they could look at. When my response was no, they broke it off.

This definitely struck a nerve when I read it. I'm gradually making my way in GitHub with my own toy projects but truth be told, I prefer to spend time with my wife and work on my body (I have weight to lose and I need loads of cardio) than to always be on my PC/Macbook and code for glory.

There are people who realize this and are respecting it (and are adapting their interview per candidate) but increasingly, companies simply don't want you if you didn't invest months/years in showing off.

Re: Ask HN: What sort of side-projects are useful for getting jobs?

#154

Post by pdimitar »

localtalent wrote: post #108

It depends where you want to work. Here in NYC my experience, the plural of which is not data: Enterprise-style jobs at non-tech-focused places (banks, pharma) don't care. Big Consulting companies really don't care, they just want warm bodies. Startups and small companies care a lot. I've been on both sides of the table and it's been a big differentiator. When I was screening potential candidates at another company,…

    > Big Consulting companies really don't care, they just want warm bodies.
Could you please elaborate on this?

Re: Ask HN: What sort of side-projects are useful for getting jobs?

#155

Post by forgetsusername »

treehau5 wrote: post #76
cpursley wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 0%. Side projects are how I've gotten all of my real jobs. Side projects* demonstrate that not only can you write code, but that you can also architect and deploy an application that solves real world problems. There's a lot more to software engineering than can be tested by fizzbuzzing on a whiteboard. * (I'm assuming your side project is an application)

side projects show you can clone code on github and push it to your own repo. Interviews show you can articulate what you know in a convincing fashion, and that you have done homework on the company as well as your skills of inference and general personal skills to glean into what sort of answer the particular interview is looking for at the time. Something a lot of people really miss out on when bikeshedding over ho…

>your skills of inference and general personal skills to glean into what sort of answer the particular interview is looking for at the time.

Interviews beget interview skills. How does this translate into job performance?

Re: Ask HN: What sort of side-projects are useful for getting jobs?

#156

Post by pjsg »

When I interview someone, I always ask about side projects. Some have been huge, and some small (and maybe half haven't done any). However, the passion that the interviewee shows when talking about their project is very revealing. Also, do they really understand the problem, do they have a realistic view of what can be achieved.

Re: Ask HN: What sort of side-projects are useful for getting jobs?

#157

Post by baumandm »

aphextron wrote: post #102
jamesmp98 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my problems is finding junior jobs. It seems whenever I go searching I see only mid-senior level jobs

>One of my problems is finding junior jobs. It seems whenever I go searching I see only mid-senior level jobs Stop applying to junior jobs and thinking of yourself as a junior. "junior" is just code word for "pay me less". Get yourself to where you need to be and just apply for regular roles.

Difficult when non-junior jobs require 3+ years of work experience and you have none. A majority of companies will filter out your resume before you even get an interview.

And then there's the practical issue of living without a job while you get education, build experience, etc.

In my opinion, "junior" is code word for entry-level, and it's the easiest search query to find those jobs.

Re: Ask HN: What sort of side-projects are useful for getting jobs?

#158

Post by treehau5 »

forgetsusername wrote: post #155
treehau5 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

side projects show you can clone code on github and push it to your own repo. Interviews show you can articulate what you know in a convincing fashion, and that you have done homework on the company as well as your skills of inference and general personal skills to glean into what sort of answer the particular interview is looking for at the time. Something a lot of people really miss out on when bikeshedding over ho…

> your skills of inference and general personal skills to glean into what sort of answer the particular interview is looking for at the time. Interviews beget interview skills. How does this translate into job performance?

Even if you glean into what sort of answer they are looking for, you still have to know the answer.

Re: Ask HN: What sort of side-projects are useful for getting jobs?

#159

Post by tytrin »

A lot of responses I've seen seem to bag on side-projects. My experience has been a little different, but I see the wisdom in 'Don't pursue side projects if its purely for getting a job'.

Here's my story: I was a Junior in College, and had just learned Java. I was bored with the class, so decided to do something with Java, since I'd just picked it up. I decided to write a small mod for Minecraft, back before like 1.5 or something. It was a simple terrain modification, involving some basic 3D geometry. And after a few weeks, I was able to post it and had some success. I was very pleased with my Floating Islands.

That summer, when I was applying for _Internships_, They asked about my work with Java, and I mentioned the mod I had made, and explained the process as well as the logic I had used to get it done. They later extended an offer to me, and thus I started my first Internship.

As I got to know some of my interviewers, by working with them, I was given the chance to ask what I had done which made them think to offer me the spot. You see, I wasn't the strongest in CompSci, since I was actually studying as an Electrical Engineer. The interviewer mentioned a small handful of things involving problem solving, and the way I could handle changes in requirements ( they enjoyed throwing a wrench in the works during the interview questions). And then he mentioned that my work outside of school had put me over the edge because it wasn't just academic, it was personal.

So in summary, perhaps at the Professional Level side-projects of low-impact have a low rate of return, but at the college level, I believe it is worth investing your time in a side-project, to grow your skills and to show you are interested in it beyond mere academia.

Re: Ask HN: What sort of side-projects are useful for getting jobs?

#160

Post by mindcrime »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #152
mindcrime wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silicon Valley used to be famous for the exact opposite: the story was always that formal credentials were less important than demonstrated competence. Have things really changed that much? Anyway, at least here on the East Coast, I find that many (most?) companies don't have a strict requirement regarding a degree. At least, not if you have real world experience. Maybe it's more crucial if you're going for your firs…

I certainly agree that formal credentials are secondary to demonstrated competence, but in the specific case of neither credentials nor experience, people with credentials and no experience have always had the first choice at the job. When you have neither, getting a job in uncertain, there are many variables outside of your control. But getting a degree is completely within your control so it is the better choice of…

That sounds about right. For me, I fell into a weird scenario where I was still in school right during the peak of the late 90's "dot com bubble" era, when anybody could get a job as a programmer if they could turn a computer on. So I quit school and went to work. And after keeping that first job 4 and a half years, I never had any trouble with a job after that, even without having a bachelor's degree.

Strangely though, I've accumulated 3 associate degrees (general education, computer programming, and high performance computing) over the years as well. Somehow, with all that, nobody ever mentions that I never finished my bachelors degree.

Not sure if it's possible to replicate that career path these days or not. I may just be the product of a specific era of history.

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