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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a reason we can't have both? It's not actually possible to solve it the other way anyway. It's not 1929 anymore. Modern construction jobs require trained workers with trade licenses who demand middle class salaries and benefits. That is a lot more expensive per-person than a UBI. So if you have a legitimate project like that, go hire some of those people and do the work. But what about everybody else?

>Is there a reason we can't have both? If you mean UBI and a job guarantee, I suppose not, however it's going to cause inflation to spike pretty high. >It's not 1929 anymore It actually kind of is. Wages have stagnated, the wealth of the 1% has ballooned, infrastructure is crumbling and the far right is on the rise. >Modern construction jobs require trained workers with trade licenses who demand middle class salaries…

> If you mean UBI and a job guarantee, I suppose not, however it's going to cause inflation to spike pretty high.

Not a job guarantee, just normal government spending on infrastructure projects, as compared with the underinvestment we've seen over the past decades.

> It actually kind of is. Wages have stagnated, the wealth of the 1% has ballooned, infrastructure is crumbling and the far right is on the rise.

What I mean is we're no longer willing to put unskilled workers in dangerous jobs with no training and stand by while they get killed or kill other people because they don't know what they're doing or they lack the disposition to work safely with industrial equipment.

> Just guaranteeing paid work to the ~30% unemployed is far cheaper than giving a stipend to every person in the United States.

Only if you count the taxes someone "pays" but immediately gets back as a UBI as "costing money". If you use the same accounting that gets used for means-tested programs, the "cost" of a UBI turns negative for everyone making a below average income and costs about the same as existing means-tested programs for people with above average incomes (depending obviously on the amount of the UBI).

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Manhattan, in theory, should be dirt cheap as far as $/sq.ft. due to massive supply, and it's not. Because it's supply and demand . The demand is very high in Manhattan. What we would expect is that anywhere there is such high demand that the price is higher than the construction cost, there would be new construction (increase in supply) until prices fall to meet the construction cost. In other words the cost of an…

> But we don't see that because of zoning regulations that prohibit it. Are you sure that's the one and only answer? There are some cities with very lax zoning regulations, Dallas or Houston come to mind. And yet we don't see a massive migration from suburbs to the high rises. Are there any cities that could serve as examples to support your theory? It's not like residential high-rises are a recent phenomenon. You'd…

> There are some cities with very lax zoning regulations, Dallas or Houston come to mind. And yet we don't see a massive migration from suburbs to the high rises.

Have you actually compared rents in cities like Houston to the same sized apartments in cities with more restrictive zoning? They're lower in Houston.

The reason people don't live in high rises in Texas cities is that they're so sprawled they don't need vertical construction. San Francisco has almost five times the population density of Houston even though Houston has almost three times as many people.

> How do property taxes discourage construction?

They discourage the property owners. If you own a ten story building on a lot zoned for twenty, adding the extra ten floors looks a lot more attractive before you subtract out the additional property taxes you'll owe forever if you do it.

This is a compounding problem because the property taxes are based on the property value but the property value is based on scarcity, so if housing units become scarce then property values (and thus property taxes) go up and you have to charge higher rents to justify new construction. Which allows rents to go even higher because there is less new construction which further increases property taxes and requires even higher rents to justify new construction and so on

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Creating jobs is one thing, but creating meaningful jobs is something completely different. * Hoover Dam * Lincoln Tunnel * LAX * LaGuardia Airport Just a few examples of things created by jobs created primarily to give people work. >Are these meaningless jobs really better than universal basic income? Would you rather pay somebody to build the next Lincoln Tunnel or pay for them to write some poetry and start an em…

Those things weren't created primarily to give people work, they were created to fulfill demand for electricity and transportation, respectively. If no one needs to commute to work in Manhattan, then there is no need for a Lincoln Tunnel. If no one has business meetings or disposable income for leisure travel, then LAX and LaGuardia would be idiotic. We do see this kind of stuff - huge infrastructure projects with no…

Examples of work more for work's sake might be landscaping or cleaning up streets. There are loads of rest areas or urban median strips/verges that look really awful worldwide. We could easily give people some responsibility for maintaining those.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Higher education costs expanded to absorb the extra money from the student loans thrown at them That's because they're catastrophically stupid industry-specific interest rate subsidies. A dollar for tuition is then less expensive than a dollar for anything else, so everyone conspires to buy things with the cheap government money that isn't available when used for anything else. And that process is highly inefficien…

> because it's basically a huge implicit fraud scheme to redirect subsidized student loan money to things that aren't strictly education, which no one can admit to out loud or explicitly negotiate for I agree, but how does showing up with a wad of cash instead of a check from a student loan agency increase your negotiating power? Large number of international students today (Chinese and Saudi until recently) paid cas…

> I agree, but how does showing up with a wad of cash instead of a check from a student loan agency increase your negotiating power?

Because cash you can spend somewhere else.

Suppose you like football. If the money is "student loans" then you can spend it by attending a school with a big fancy college football stadium and subsidized tickets for students. If the the money is cash then you can use it to go to that school instead of a less expensive one with no football stadium, or you can go to the less expensive school and use the money to buy NFL season tickets.

So when the money is student loans, people have only the first option and all the schools have to build big fancy football stadiums to attract students. But you can't do that on a per-student basis. And you can't directly buy college football tickets with student loan money but you can launder it through administration to subsidize them. So everybody who attends that school ends up paying for football even if all they really wanted was an education, and then people have to consider the quality of the school's football team when choosing schools instead of only the quality of their professors. It would have been better to have just let the students who like football use the money to buy NFL tickets.

And so on for twelve other categories of student loan money laundering colleges have to engage in to attract students.

> UBI also removes the advantage of centralized negotiating power that's beneficial in industries like healthcare. With Medicare or a private insurance company the $500 list price for doctor's exam can be negotiated down to $99.

There is no reason you can't use your UBI money to buy private insurance.

And the only reason the list price for those things is $500 is that everybody knows the scam. The buyer for the insurance company wants to look like a great negotiator to his boss, so the doctor's office claims everything costs five times as much as they actually want and the buyer gets to look like a big hero for whacking it down so much.

And in general insurance makes things cost more for the same reason colleges with fancy football stadiums are more expensive. People don't ask whether something is worth the cost when they're spending somebody else's money. If you're paying out of your own pocket, you ask if knowing the result of some test is really worth $1200 of your money. If the insurance company is paying for it, you run all the tests whether you need them or not.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#475
post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal income tax only. In general, I believe individuals are the best deciders on how to spend their money, but I do not deny that gov has a responsibility to defend life, liberty and property. If it can't do that with the voluntary support of it's citizens (aka owners) then it deserves to be replaced. Fortunately we have a pretty awesome system to do exactly that. I was too glib (wrong) in my second response to t…

I see; fair enough :). I'm not personally opposed to personal income tax, but I'm from a country that leans a little more to the left overall and the benefits of my taxation are evident. It's also less vexing; the tax comes directly out of my paycheque -- I never see that money. My understanding is that in the USA, one has to annually perform a federal tax return? I'm not exactly pro-income tax either, but (governed…

Thanks :) Yes, every year we are expected to fill out a bunch of paperwork (generally between 1 and 100 pages) and hand it in by a certain date "or else". The bureaucracy that interprets this paperwork (imho) is a total waste of money (on the personal income tax side), and the time_cost*every_taxpayer is absurd.

For most people, their employer took out (in excess) taxes all year and sent them in, so they get a refund (after the paperwork ritual) on the loan they made to the gov with 0% interest.

I'm not a fan on taxes on things you own because it means you don't _really_ own them. For example a person who owns a piece of property but can not pay the property tax. It gets taken from them by force if necessary, hence they never really owned it. At the very least we should carve out an exemption for property you live on. Transaction taxes don't have that problem.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But we don't see that because of zoning regulations that prohibit it. Are you sure that's the one and only answer? There are some cities with very lax zoning regulations, Dallas or Houston come to mind. And yet we don't see a massive migration from suburbs to the high rises. Are there any cities that could serve as examples to support your theory? It's not like residential high-rises are a recent phenomenon. You'd…

> There are some cities with very lax zoning regulations, Dallas or Houston come to mind. And yet we don't see a massive migration from suburbs to the high rises. Have you actually compared rents in cities like Houston to the same sized apartments in cities with more restrictive zoning? They're lower in Houston. The reason people don't live in high rises in Texas cities is that they're so sprawled they don't need ver…

> If you own a ten story building on a lot zoned for twenty, adding the extra ten floors looks a lot more attractive before you subtract out the additional property taxes you'll owe forever if you do it.

By that logic one should bulldoze the existing 10-story building and stick to owning dirt lots, realizing enormous property tax savings along the way.

The reason you don't see entire cities converted into dirt lots is that in reality things don't work that way.

The developer that builds condos doesn't really have an opinion on property taxes because paying those will be up to condo owners. The developer that builds apartment towers intended for rent doesn't care because the rental operator will take over, and the assessment of a rental property is a function of existing cashflows and comparables, subject to change when assessed at too high of a value.

> property values (and thus property taxes) go up and you have to charge higher rents to justify new construction

In reality large-scale commercial build-outs do not depend on financing from existing renters. A property operator (the principal) typically contributes some cash but also brings in a variety of outside investors. The rest of the sum is raised via fixed-interest debt and is one of the largest areas of US commercial banking. As a rental property reaches stabilization point, the principal conducts another round of outside investments, this time in somewhat worse investor terms, as the property is de-risked and has relatively stable cash flows. The money is used to pay down the commercial loan to a reasonable LTV.

When the plans for a new project show up on the horizon, the fundraising cycle begins again, with principal contributing some "skin in the game", outside investors participating in the first round, and numbers from existing properties being used in a presentation deck sent to the bank in order to secure a new commercial loan.

If everybody financed by raising rents on existing renters, than apartments by some aggressively growing operators (let's say Avalon Bay) would be extremely expensive, while exact same apartments owned by conservatively stable operators (let's say Essex Property Trust) would be extremely cheap. We do not see that imbalance in the marketplace.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#477
How do the people who support this scheme plan to get around Say's Law? All of the wealth that this "income" can demand still has to be produced by someone. Is this just going to be open theft of wealth with printed money or open theft of wealth to be distributed as money somehow?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was made unemployed, it was the lack of money that made me feel undignified. I couldn't feed my kids and had to as for handouts. UBI would have been amazing. I would have spent the money on food, shelter and heating. I would have spent the time writing software and trying to start a company.

There are absolutely people like you, and absolutely people who will just play WoW all day, every day. The question is, how many of each?

I doubt this will be read as I've taken too long in replying. But does it matter? If only 1% get to create new and interesting projects, then that is 1% more than at the moment.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#479

I'm a big fan of Thomas Piketty's idea of a progressive global tax on wealth. I think that the root cause of a lot of the financial stress that many people are feeling right now is the result of having too many people leeching off of passive income from their investments/wealth (derived from work they did 30 years ago) and not actually contributing anything new to society. These wealthy people have become parasites.…

What you've described is close to Georgism, which holds that people should only be able to own wealth they produce themselves by their own labor, and that wealth from 'rent seeking' (land rents, natural resources, natural monopolies) should belong to everyone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

That sounds great.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#480
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Laffer curve deals with output from labor. When you tax someone you reduce the money they get per unit work, i.e. their wage. If the wage is too low they might not find it worth doing the work. If I'm a paid shill/some job and I'm taxed 99%, I might stop shilling because the effort outweighs my salary. Regarding automation, see the lump of labour fallacy. Humans will just switch to tasks that aren't automated (th…

Once we've reached utopia/post-scarcity society how will we make sure that poor people get fed?

In a post-scarcity society food/etc is very cheap and thus even poor people can afford sufficient food even if they don't work much (this is already true for developed countries).

Even a small amount of charity would provide anybody who can't work at all with sufficient food. Just like how today data storage in hard drives is dirt cheap; and we can provide billions of bytes of storage at nominal cost.

Looking at current society, starvation and mass famines have decreased greatly. Malnutrition is the next concern.

So, in some sense we may have reached post-scarcity for food for a large portion of human population. But there is still scarcity for quality and healthy food, such as fruits and vegetables.

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