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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#431
post #205
post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

Creating jobs is one thing, but creating meaningful jobs is something completely different. In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort. The first time i came to the US, i got the same feeling, lots of meaningless jobs (lift boy, parking lot attendant, grocery store bag filler) that i didn't see in the Netherlands. Are these meaningle…

Yes, but it depends on how people see or interpret their jobs. If you really see meaning in bagging someone's groceries, then it's valuable. If you see meaning in giving people the stop/go signal at a garage in Japan, then it's meaningful.

If one goes to Japan, one might think one sees a number of geriatrics doing needless or meaningless jobs --on the other hand, if you look carefully, for many of these people that simple job gives them meaning in life. They actually take pride in doing their job dutifully and faithfully with pride --things someone from the US would scoff at or think ridiculous. So, it just requires a re-framing.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#432
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say it was :). What alternative do you propose?

Numerous states haven't had a problem with it even though they have no personal income tax. http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2013/03/...

Right -- so those 7 states listed in the article have alternative forms of tax (corporate income tax, oil-production taxes, etc.). Are you opposed solely to personal income taxes (while still supporting alternative forms of tax), or are you opposed to all taxation?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The few who do look into self-improvement are the same ones that have done it regardless of the economic condition of the lower class of their time..." Citation needed. Otherwise, it's not even anecdata. If your perspective from "...a small third world welfare state..." is to be informative, please expand and explain.

> Otherwise, it's not even anecdata While it's no comprehensive study, it is very much anecdata, for it's how my parents, parts of my family and plenty of people I know have managed to climb out of poverty of all degrees before there was a welfare system. Hunger and work did not deter them. The word "mutante" (mutant) is often used to describe this kind of people, for how they decide to break the norm despite the env…

Thank you for expanding on your post.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Straw man. No data to support that; just a scare story. How about: cost of goods continues to drop as automation continues to expand explosively (as it has in the last 10 years). Standard of living rises steadily as the workforce decreases. What's the difference in the two scenarios? Data. Which we don't have. So certainly a UBI should be carefully introduced to keep the economy stable.

This is why we need more experiments like the one in Finland. It would be irresponsible to implement a UBI until we know which of these two scenarios is most likely. Although, I suspect the reality will fall somewhere between the two.

Or, just implement it and adjust the payment for stability.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you rather pay somebody to build the next Lincoln Tunnel or pay for them to write some poetry and start an emo band? Would you rather pay somebody to build the next Bridge to Nowhere or pay them to start the next Apple?

I'd be happy enough if there were no apple. Overpriced crap, reality distortion field and an egomaniac running a wage fixing cartel operating the whole thing. No thanks. I'll take some high speed rail though, please. Perhaps 100,000 new affordable apartments in New York and San Francisco too. Unless you think that there's no need and people wouldn't want them?

Is there a reason we can't have both?

It's not actually possible to solve it the other way anyway. It's not 1929 anymore. Modern construction jobs require trained workers with trade licenses who demand middle class salaries and benefits. That is a lot more expensive per-person than a UBI.

So if you have a legitimate project like that, go hire some of those people and do the work. But what about everybody else?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#438
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off-topic, but Americans literally are shooting each other in the streets. More americans have died in gun homicides than died in all wars since, and including WW2. Include suicides, and gun violence exceeds all US war deaths ever. http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/aug/27/...

Some Americans in some areas. My experience has been if you do not get involved with buying or selling drugs, you will be pretty safe. Which I guess is the point of the war on drugs, but that hasn't worked out so well.

Hmm.. the point of it, or result of it?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#439
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numerous states haven't had a problem with it even though they have no personal income tax. http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2013/03/...

Right -- so those 7 states listed in the article have alternative forms of tax (corporate income tax, oil-production taxes, etc.). Are you opposed solely to personal income taxes (while still supporting alternative forms of tax), or are you opposed to all taxation?

Personal income tax only. In general, I believe individuals are the best deciders on how to spend their money, but I do not deny that gov has a responsibility to defend life, liberty and property. If it can't do that with the voluntary support of it's citizens (aka owners) then it deserves to be replaced. Fortunately we have a pretty awesome system to do exactly that.

I was too glib (wrong) in my second response to the assertion that my statement implies all social policies are theft.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#440
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind sharing where you live?

Uruguay.

Interesting. As someone who has never been there, I always had a positive impression of Uruguay, and have even remarked on HN that I'd like to live there for a while. What I've read about Uruguay has all been very positive and by many indicators it seems prosperous in comparison to other countries in the region. What's your impression of the country as a whole?
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