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Free Software Foundation Priority Projects

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Re: Free Software Foundation Priority Projects

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take slight issue with this. It's not you personally, but I see this a lot in tech, in particular from the FOSS crowd 'Well, if you don't need x or y, then its fine!' FOSS will always be second tier for most people until the plethora of software available is at some relative parity, similar to that of macOS at least. (I'm talking strict availability). The fact that there isn't more cohesive efforts to have big soft…

It's an interesting point of view, but I'm not sure I agree with the underlying argument. Specifically, I have not seen the free software environment stagnating at all. If anything I have seen it accelerating fairly consistently since I first became aware of it in 1985. There was a time when I was forbidden from using free software in my day job. Now I am encouraged to use it. How far we have come. This point of idea…

By and large, the industry is embracing open source (BSD, MIT, Apache licenses), but not FSF-style free software (GPL).

Re: Free Software Foundation Priority Projects

#92
post #63

if FSF wants a intelligent assistant it will have to collect usage data, no? a little against the whole principle... but if the data are open, that would be kind of cool ;)

An AI-driven assistant doesn't have to necessarily run on someone else's servers and be under their control to be useful. In fact, if I teach my assistant patterns like how when I say "David" I mean David O, then I don't see a) why this type of learning can't be fully localized, or b) how phoning home with this kind of data is going to be of any particular use to anybody else, anyway. To put it another way, what's wr…

> what's wrong with letting my Siri and your Siri just be two different "people" instead of feeding back into a single, networked hivemind?

Absolutely nothing wrong.. that would be great, actually. Question is how to do that without data and GPUs.

Re: Free Software Foundation Priority Projects

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take slight issue with this. It's not you personally, but I see this a lot in tech, in particular from the FOSS crowd 'Well, if you don't need x or y, then its fine!' FOSS will always be second tier for most people until the plethora of software available is at some relative parity, similar to that of macOS at least. (I'm talking strict availability). The fact that there isn't more cohesive efforts to have big soft…

It's an interesting point of view, but I'm not sure I agree with the underlying argument. Specifically, I have not seen the free software environment stagnating at all. If anything I have seen it accelerating fairly consistently since I first became aware of it in 1985. There was a time when I was forbidden from using free software in my day job. Now I am encouraged to use it. How far we have come. This point of idea…

I don't know if my point came across well, so I will try and re-iterate what I mean here in some more detail.

To be perfectly clear: I share your motivations, and I cede that the FSF is a lobbying organization for promoting libre software. I want to note that I'm not specifically taking target at FSF here just generally the OSS/FOSS community in aggregate as I have interacted with them.

Now, to the argument! :)

My basic argument is as follows:

1. Its more important to have a libre/free OS than it is to have all Applications ever be libre/free. This is a matter of pragmatism. Your wifes phone for example, would be much better off if the phone OS itself was libre. This in my opinion is the best approach to take. It gives you the bulk of the freedom that one does seek, without completely alienating developers who, in some cases given the realities of today, rightly (or wrongly), don't want to or can't open source their software. I'd rather have their software on an FOSS platform than have to leave a FOSS platform to run their software. Thats just the economics of the world at work.

2. If one accepts #1 to be a justifiable position, which I think it is, the singular focus as far as the software part is concerned is to push that operating system forward with that set of ideals. Too often I find in the OSS/FOSS communities that they don't evangelize the platform, they evangelize the ideas, which again, i completely get, and I think for users, esp. of a technical bent, get it, and use it, and benefit from it. However, I don't think the average user, or even the majority of technical users, can get away with the switch. In part, its because the same logic that makes a FOSS/OSS operating system amazing doesn't particularly scale to Applications. Again, I will reference the missing software of Adobe, Microsoft, even task app like 2Do, Wunderlist, or the lovely Pixelmator, or even Zoho business apps are not available as native Applications on FOSS/OSS platforms, even Electron-type apps aren't scaling to Linux quickly. I think this is because the platforms aren't being evangelized. Everyone is concerned about the licensing, whether they can review an apps code, etc. or they get caught up in other mundane details, instead of unifying around a platform model that allows Apps of all types to exist (which i realize they do now, but I'm talking about community voices).

3. I would say to your point, an open source phone that runs 'nonfree' software is better than a nonfree phone OS running nonfree software. Why? Well, see above, but specifically because things like OS updates and OS changes would be viewable at a source code level, thereby if any apps are making modifications to it, you will see that.

4. The one thing, and this is my biggest thing, is that the lack of evangelizing as a platform for users is until recently, there is a huge lack of direction in the FOSS/OSS community. Elementary OS is the first time I've seen where a Linux distro is actually putting users first and adopting modern design and aesthetics. Another recent version of that is KDE's Neon built on ubuntu. Great desktop experiences. I feel the user experience suffers from a lack of focus on evangelizing and focus on a platform, instead of just ideals, that presents itself as a coherent whole that is accessible to develop for with some consistent standards. FOSS/OSS doesn't have to equal completely decentralized missions split between 2000 organizations. Where there has been unification lately, the better those products are becoming and actually entice users on a platform. High Idealism is well and good, but without focus on the platform, its hard to argue to switch. If you build a good platform, and get developers to make apps for it that people want to use, you are, in my opinion, gaining more than you're losing with this approach.

I have never seen this approach until very recently in the FOSS/OSS community. I'm glad its happening. It looks like huge steps in the right direction. Now if we could get some of the larger organizations behind a consistent evangelized message for desktop and mobile you could have some real change.

Re: Free Software Foundation Priority Projects

#95
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no force keeping people from contributing, they are just choosing not to. We all naturally have tunnel vision, and apply our experience to everyone else. I can't speak for you, but many people who don't face discrimination naturally don't encounter the obstacles and don't feel negatively toward minorities; they assume that therefore such things don't exist. But something is missing from our perception, beca…

I'm tired of the "check your privilege" crowd bringing their guilt mongering into everything. You know what I love about free software? It's ultimately judged on merits. I use software everyday written by all kinds of people, many of whom I would otherwise have little in common with. I don't care about their personal lives, political opinions, or baggage. I care about what they've produced and vice versa. It's the ul…

I don't understand why trying to make the FOSS community more inclusive would kill its openness.

Re: Free Software Foundation Priority Projects

#96
post #12

I think there is too much politics behind fsf. Instead of battling for users they are battling for licenses.

The FSF is a political organization; saying it has too much politics behind it is an oxymoron. And choosing to go after users over licenses is also a political decision. Besides, we already have Open Source as a movement that makes the pragmatic argument for free software, there's no need to water down the FSF.

Then let's rephrase to meet that cavil - there's far too much irrelevant, futile and stupendously wasteful politics, then. The (yes, political) goal of free software is wonderful. Copyleft is a great invention. But the continued insistence on grabbing patents or even obviating patent law in its entire from within a software license - and also the mission to prevent tivoization (which I might want to protect my OS from an inside job or proximate attack, thank you) - has wasted billions of dollars (Google recreating GNU under a more liberal license), fragmented the movement, and tainted the brand, too.

Re: Free Software Foundation Priority Projects

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting point of view, but I'm not sure I agree with the underlying argument. Specifically, I have not seen the free software environment stagnating at all. If anything I have seen it accelerating fairly consistently since I first became aware of it in 1985. There was a time when I was forbidden from using free software in my day job. Now I am encouraged to use it. How far we have come. This point of idea…

I don't know if my point came across well, so I will try and re-iterate what I mean here in some more detail. To be perfectly clear: I share your motivations, and I cede that the FSF is a lobbying organization for promoting libre software. I want to note that I'm not specifically taking target at FSF here just generally the OSS/FOSS community in aggregate as I have interacted with them. Now, to the argument! :) My ba…

Thanks for clarifying. It definitely makes more sense to me than what I understood from the previous message. Personally, I think there is room for a variety of approaches. It's one of the reasons I'm happy that the OSI is around to champion open source methodologies as distinct from software freedom. Likely, as you say, there would be some benefit from people concentrating on building user-focussed end-to-end experiences.

Having said that, I don't think the FSF needs to get involved with that as the role of prioritising software freedom in an ever changing world is probably more important and also more difficult than ever.

One thing I would caution is assuming that encouraging non-free applications on a free operating system is always going to be win-win. I worked at Corel when they were doing their Linux distro. They misunderstood free software badly. They saw it as an opportunity to lock people into their proprietary applications by changing the underlying OS (without having to pay for developing it). This led to some pretty strange business decisions and ultimately wasted a huge amount of money.

There were a couple of spinoffs from ex-Corel employees who tried to maintain this way of thinking and it was always an uphill struggle. Probably the only one to make any kind of profit was TransGaming and I'll maintain that was substantially because Gav State is both a talented and genuinely nice guy.

I think in order to to make this kind of thing work, you need to understand free software (and the goals of free software) at a very deep level. From my experience, it's just no compatible in a natural way.

Re: Free Software Foundation Priority Projects

#98
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has an impact all the time because there are many subjects not safe to discuss. I agree with you, in the sense that cultures heavier on PC typically have a bit more self-censorship than they might otherwise. However, my experience so far is basically that nothing of value was lost! I can kinda sympathize with the first guy who gets in trouble for stepping over the (newly instated, sometimes implicit) line. But a…

Depends on how much value you place on office socialising, which certainly has it's benefits. It can also have a big impact on hiring when it becomes heresy to question things like diversity quotas. One I often see personally is not being able to discriminate based on communication ability out of fear of being labelled racist.

And there's a good reason to have a more open mind about communication: you miss out on some potentially great candidates that way. The first ops person I hired at blekko had kinda terrible spoken English. He was awesome and solved a lot of hard problems. I just learned to not try to communicate with him over the phone :-)

If I step back a step, the reality is that I am always more comfortable communicating with people like me, with an accent I'm comfortable with, who use my kind of vocabulary, who use similar grammar to mine. Guess what? I can effectively communicate with a lot more people than the ones who score highly on my personal communication scale.

Edit: I should add that this is something that should be discussed openly during the recruitment process.

Re: Free Software Foundation Priority Projects

#100
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no force keeping people from contributing, they are just choosing not to. We all naturally have tunnel vision, and apply our experience to everyone else. I can't speak for you, but many people who don't face discrimination naturally don't encounter the obstacles and don't feel negatively toward minorities; they assume that therefore such things don't exist. But something is missing from our perception, beca…

I'm tired of the "check your privilege" crowd bringing their guilt mongering into everything. You know what I love about free software? It's ultimately judged on merits. I use software everyday written by all kinds of people, many of whom I would otherwise have little in common with. I don't care about their personal lives, political opinions, or baggage. I care about what they've produced and vice versa. It's the ul…

I've seen a lot of hostility online against people with non-european names. The idea that open source contributors are measured solely on merit is something of a fantasy. The canonical example here is contributors with an Indian name - they face a lot of social flak regardless of merit. No, not every project does it, but the ecosystem itself is somewhat unfriendly to such people.

> Please keep the social justice fighting out of free software

What are you talking about? The FSF birthed this movement, and was functionally based on social justice issues. If you pay any heed at all to the 'four freedoms', that's definitively 'social justice fighting'.

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