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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#401

Post by AnthonyMouse »

chriskanan wrote: post #207
dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

I think that's one of the biggest open questions with UBI. What percent of people would use UBI to do productive or self-improving works vs those that solely play video games, watch TV, and feel like life is meaningless? I think psychologically, people need something to do with themselves. However, a counter argument is that many of the people that UBI may benefit the most might have jobs that they loathe. I'd love t…

> However, a counter argument is that many of the people that UBI may benefit the most might have jobs that they loathe.

That's not really a counterargument. Suppose you have a job you hate and suddenly you have a UBI. Quit immediately and go find a job you love -- even if the pay is crap, add the UBI to it and it's as good what you had before. Meanwhile the horrible degrading McJob nobody actually wants can either be replaced by a machine or will have to have sufficiently better pay or working conditions to get anyone to do it.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#402

Post by pessimizer »

lisivka wrote: post #7
Tepix wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about machines doing most of the jobs so there are only a few jobs left? The value the machines generate would be enough to generate the basic income. Why is it impossible?

So, I, programmer, will be forced to work 12 hours per day to keep robots firmware up to date, while everybody else will enjoy free ride? Sorry, it will not work: I will chose free ride too. Why not just decrease number of working hours to say 2 per day, but for everybody, instead?

The free ride bus is too ratty for me; I'll take half of your job and I'm sure we'll find someone else to take the other half.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#404

Post by inimino »

wolfgke wrote: post #328
jondubois wrote: post #323

If I had basic income, I would go back to study, get a PhD in Computer Science Majoring in AI/Machine learning and then I would try to do something meaningful with it. I am tired of doing pseudo-intellectual software 'engineering' tasks - I would like to use my intellect to tackle difficult problems instead of trivial problems like building UI components and managing databases. Unfortunately, I can't afford to go to…

The fact that someone is paying you to do these jobs shows that the things you do do have a lot value to someone (your boss, the company's customers etc.). So your existing job is far from being meaningless. Instead of crying for a UBI you should better cry for people not to buy software that does "trivial stuff". If people were willing to spend a lot of money on software that does highly not-trivial stuff, there pro…

This is a homo economicus fantasy. It is entirely possible for the employee to see how irrational, socially useless, or a net negative their job is, while not in a position to change it.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#405

Post by devoply »

umberway wrote: post #403

It seems to me that basic income could make me either (1) fall victim to depression, addiction, or some other mental disorder, or (2) find a hard problem to work on which keeps me occupied and satisfied for a lifetime.

Or an easy problem. Or any problem. Or social work. Or volunteer-ism. Or cycling. Or wandering the streets of your city. Honestly the work based culture has dulled the creativity people to such an extent that they can't think of anything outside of work. Or maybe human males are wired for this sort of thing. I dunno.

The reason people become drug addicts or alcoholics is that it's painful to be outside of the social culture. And work is the social culture of our time. It's the only thing that makes people feel relevant. We need to invent alternative forms of feeling relevant.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#406

Post by sean_patel »

n_ wrote: post #389
sean_patel wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't get past the 1st line > Consider for a moment that from this day forward, on the first day of every month, around $1,000 is deposited into your bank account – because you are a citizen. If implemented, it will surely be a disaster in America (DOA - Dead on Arrival), considering how well African Americans have worked and abused the Food Stamps system. Let me tell you a story. I was getting my beat up Honda…

This is the worst comment I've ever read on HN.

Thank you.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#408

Post by mixedCase »

ridgeguy wrote: post #394
mixedCase wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I believe basic human nature includes curiosity. Living in a society means one will naturally seek the appreciation, acceptance and respect of their peers. I think these alone will eventually lead most people to contribute something useful to our world one way or another. As someone living in a small third world welfare state, I can't help but laugh at the naiveté that can lead someone to believe something like that…

"The few who do look into self-improvement are the same ones that have done it regardless of the economic condition of the lower class of their time..." Citation needed. Otherwise, it's not even anecdata. If your perspective from "...a small third world welfare state..." is to be informative, please expand and explain.

> Otherwise, it's not even anecdata

While it's no comprehensive study, it is very much anecdata, for it's how my parents, parts of my family and plenty of people I know have managed to climb out of poverty of all degrees before there was a welfare system. Hunger and work did not deter them. The word "mutante" (mutant) is often used to describe this kind of people, for how they decide to break the norm despite the environment.

Growing up in a poor/lower middle-class neighborhood I haven't seen this change for the better with the welfare system. But I have seen people quitting their jobs to qualify for welfare.

As I mentioned in another comment, I'm not opposed to a well-designed social safety net for those who can't get back into the workforce nor train themselves to do so, but rest assured, UBI or anything that allows people who are perfectly capable of working, the possibility to leech off the welfare system (read: their fellow citizens) permanently without giving back, is nothing short of a disgrace for society.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#409

Post by shortstuffsushi »

jondubois wrote: post #323

If I had basic income, I would go back to study, get a PhD in Computer Science Majoring in AI/Machine learning and then I would try to do something meaningful with it. I am tired of doing pseudo-intellectual software 'engineering' tasks - I would like to use my intellect to tackle difficult problems instead of trivial problems like building UI components and managing databases. Unfortunately, I can't afford to go to…

So, I have a couple of questions here -- one for UBI and one for you.

1. You're hoping for UBI so that you can quit the work force and get a PhD, so you're going to (at least temporarily) cease to input money into the system, and start to take money from the system. That seems like effectively twice the cost. Where does that money come from, if you and other people have that same idea? This is the part of UBI I'm struggling to comprehend. There's the idea that you will come out of school "more valuable," but that's speculative vs your current position which is actively adding value (albeit less than what you feel you're worth).

2. Why do you need UBI in order to do this? Are you making no money beyond the absolute minimum you need to live with your current job? Couldn't you potentially save some away and then do the "nights and weekends" sort of school that some people do? To your very last point, you mention having to hope for one of your startups goes big, but could you take a more "steady" / traditional job and make a decent amount of money that way?

Unpopular opinion: this strikes me as exactly a case against UBI. You're taking an active, and perhaps more importantly, tax-contributing member of society, and incentivizing them to stop being one. "Innovation would move quicker" is a great idea, but I don't think it's all that much of a guarantee. It seems likely to me that it would continue near the same pace. But, that's also just speculation / without citation.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#410

Post by cpursley »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #398
crdoconnor wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Creating jobs is one thing, but creating meaningful jobs is something completely different. * Hoover Dam * Lincoln Tunnel * LAX * LaGuardia Airport Just a few examples of things created by jobs created primarily to give people work. >Are these meaningless jobs really better than universal basic income? Would you rather pay somebody to build the next Lincoln Tunnel or pay for them to write some poetry and start an em…

> Would you rather pay somebody to build the next Lincoln Tunnel or pay for them to write some poetry and start an emo band? Would you rather pay somebody to build the next Bridge to Nowhere or pay them to start the next Apple?

Nobody is going to start the next Apple if you pay them. Nobody. Great progress and innovation only come out of great tribulation.
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