Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why we should all have a basic income

weforum.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 492 posts

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#281

Post by striking »

sean_patel wrote: post #217
dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

I couldn't get past the 1st line > Consider for a moment that from this day forward, on the first day of every month, around $1,000 is deposited into your bank account – because you are a citizen. If implemented, it will surely be a disaster in America (DOA - Dead on Arrival), considering how well African Americans have worked and abused the Food Stamps system. Let me tell you a story. I was getting my beat up Honda…

You have hearsay about one person, and generalize that across 1) an entire race and 2) all of America.

Downvoting you isn't even about political correctness for me. It's that your group size is too small to lead to any sort of substantive discussion.

There are a lot of people that abuse these systems, and a lot of honest people that don't. Maybe you should find some real data before jumping to conclusions?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#282

Post by pdelgallego »

drewrv wrote: post #146
funkyy wrote: post #94

Automation will not reduce overall jobs same way industrialization did not do that. Automation will create more jobs in services instead. Basic income is crazy socialist dream that was tested in communism already and it failed.

Automation has already replaced some service jobs, for example at grocery store self checkouts. Expect more to come (taxi/uber driver for example).

self checkouts is not automation, is shadow work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_work

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#283

Post by importantbrian »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #268
ryandvm wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, if it turns out that most people are just fine with fucking off all day and living off their UBI check then UBI is unworkable (pardon the pun). The cycle would go something like this: * UBI checks start getting sent out * Large droves of people quit the shitty jobs * Due to reduced labor supply, cost of producing goods rises * The increased cost of living means that now we need to send out even bigger UBI ch…

Straw man. No data to support that; just a scare story. How about: cost of goods continues to drop as automation continues to expand explosively (as it has in the last 10 years). Standard of living rises steadily as the workforce decreases. What's the difference in the two scenarios? Data. Which we don't have. So certainly a UBI should be carefully introduced to keep the economy stable.

This is why we need more experiments like the one in Finland. It would be irresponsible to implement a UBI until we know which of these two scenarios is most likely. Although, I suspect the reality will fall somewhere between the two.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#284

Post by ako »

Koshkin wrote: post #261
ako wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, some jobs are the same here. The main question is: do you create a job because there's some work to be done, or do you create a job because somebody needs a job?

Do you have an evidence of the latter, or this is purely hypothetical? (An honest question.)

Common knowledge, see earlier link, some googling will easily give you more info.

Lots of older people in Easter Europe think communistic days were better and wish they could go back: state provided housing, education, healthcare and a job. Not great, but basic (as in basic income).

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#285

Post by escape_goat »

dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

A basic income distributed to everyone wouldn't carry the same stigma as "handouts." Those people wouldn't stop wanting jobs, I agree. They're not going to be satisfied to just be on the dole, and net taxpayer status will probably matter a lot to them. But the basic income would provide them with a fundamental level of security and mobility. It would keep money pumping steadily into the local economy. Small-time entrepreneurs would be able to take small-time risks; small corner-store businesses would be able to prosper. A worker would be able risk leaving a job, and training for a new one; they won't get stuck filling half of their potential just to keep their children in clothing. A more flexible workforce should lower a barrier to new investment in the region. Mobility for the higher achievers would mean more opportunity for those who just want to come in, punch the clock, check out and have a beer.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#287

Post by swift »

lg wrote: post #262
dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

I don't know about the UK, but in the US, you effectively have a choice between getting welfare and working. So people have the option to take some low-paying job, but they don't do it because then they lose welfare benefits that pay almost as much, sometimes subsidizing childcare etc. so it's an unemployment trap. UBI is much saner because you get it in addition to any income you earn from working, so you can go ahe…

I think you know, but just to clarify for others: it is easily possible in the US to be in a situation where increasing the number of hours you work or accepting a job that pays more will paradoxically reduce your income:

http://www.learnliberty.org/blog/the-welfare-cliff-and-why-m...

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#288

Post by keithnz »

lg wrote: post #262
dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

I don't know about the UK, but in the US, you effectively have a choice between getting welfare and working. So people have the option to take some low-paying job, but they don't do it because then they lose welfare benefits that pay almost as much, sometimes subsidizing childcare etc. so it's an unemployment trap. UBI is much saner because you get it in addition to any income you earn from working, so you can go ahe…

this is the key point, getting a benefit, you are restricted in what you can do and you get problems as soon as you earn any extra money.... getting a UBI, which everyone gets, is different, you are free to do as much extra as you like. There are no requirements to show you are looking for work, meeting with welfare agencies etc etc. Benefits have a large negative stigma. People try to earn extra all hush hush / secret with large negative consequences if caught.

However, UBI does have some challenges. Current benefit systems try to adapt to each individuals situations, UBI is blind to individual circumstances.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#289

Post by coldtea »

Koshkin wrote: post #221
ako wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating jobs is one thing, but creating meaningful jobs is something completely different. In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort. The first time i came to the US, i got the same feeling, lots of meaningless jobs (lift boy, parking lot attendant, grocery store bag filler) that i didn't see in the Netherlands. Are these meaningle…

> In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort. I find this hard to believe. Why would a job "in communistic days" be different from, well, a job?

>I find this hard to believe.

You don't have to "believe it". Just buy and read a few historical accounts, and/or biographies of people that lived through those regimes.

In wasn't that a job in "communistic days" was different from a modern job, it was that in those days productivity wasn't that high anyway neither was purchasing power, so there was little use for jobs to make things or offer services that people couldn't afford.

All the same, everybody was supposed to automatically have a job, hence the creation of tons of mostly idle bureaucratic job positions.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#290

Post by AnthonyMouse »

dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

> They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back.

That is in fact what a basic income allows, because it allows you to eliminate the minimum wage. Then anyone who wants a job can have it, because they are allowed to accept the wages employers are actually willing to pay, and in combination with the basic income still have enough to live.

Post reply on HN