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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#221

Post by Koshkin »

ako wrote: post #205
dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

Creating jobs is one thing, but creating meaningful jobs is something completely different. In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort. The first time i came to the US, i got the same feeling, lots of meaningless jobs (lift boy, parking lot attendant, grocery store bag filler) that i didn't see in the Netherlands. Are these meaningle…

> In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort.

I find this hard to believe. Why would a job "in communistic days" be different from, well, a job?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#223

Post by monk_e_boy »

chriskanan wrote: post #207
dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

I think that's one of the biggest open questions with UBI. What percent of people would use UBI to do productive or self-improving works vs those that solely play video games, watch TV, and feel like life is meaningless? I think psychologically, people need something to do with themselves. However, a counter argument is that many of the people that UBI may benefit the most might have jobs that they loathe. I'd love t…

When I was made unemployed, it was the lack of money that made me feel undignified. I couldn't feed my kids and had to as for handouts.

UBI would have been amazing. I would have spent the money on food, shelter and heating. I would have spent the time writing software and trying to start a company.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#224

Post by jganetsk »

sokoloff wrote: post #201
jganetsk wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, let's spell it out with a basic example You said we are going to give $12 billion to the poor There is $747 billion of credit card debt in the United States. Much of that comes from lending in the past to the poor to finance their basic needs. $747 billion > $12 billion It is possible that all of 1 year's basic income entirely goes toward paying off credit card debt. In this scenario: 1) The poor receive a much n…

What is the likelihood that all $12BB given to people carrying credit card debt gets spent entirely and solely on reducing that credit card debt? I think it's about 1 / googol.

Yes but that's irrelevant. What will really happen is, as I said earlier, a combination of saving/investing, spending, and paying off debt. (Obviously, what else can you do with money?) Spending on basic needs is not the only option. They are not forced to do so. And don't underestimate just how much debt the American poor have, and how much they can benefit from relieving their debt.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#225

Post by sokoloff »

jganetsk wrote: post #224
sokoloff wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the likelihood that all $12BB given to people carrying credit card debt gets spent entirely and solely on reducing that credit card debt? I think it's about 1 / googol.

Yes but that's irrelevant. What will really happen is, as I said earlier, a combination of saving/investing, spending, and paying off debt. (Obviously, what else can you do with money?) Spending on basic needs is not the only option. They are not forced to do so. And don't underestimate just how much debt the American poor have, and how much they can benefit from relieving their debt.

Sorry. I must have mis-understood your argument about why prices would change. I thought you were positing that the recipients might spend all the UBI on retiring credit card debt, causing prices to not change. I thought that to be exceptionally unlikely.

Upon re-reading, I still read your words that way.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#226

Post by king07828 »

Country A has pure UBI. Country B has "almost UBI" where, in order to receive payments, the person must have documented proof of 3 hours per week of at least one of: volunteer work, education as a student, or teaching a class. In this scenario, I would expect country B's economy to dominate country A's economy because in order to get your check you have to work with other people (volunteer), make yourself better (student), or make others better (teach).

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#227

Post by king07828 »

Country A has pure UBI. Country B has "almost UBI" where, in order to receive payments, the person must have documented proof of 3 hours per week of at least one of: volunteer work, education as a student, or teaching a class. In this scenario, I would expect country B's economy to dominate country A's economy because in order to get your check you have to work with other people (volunteer), make yourself better (student), or make others better (teach).

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#228

Post by cmurf »

dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

It's really a need to feel useful. If we permit politicians to conflate a specific manifestation of that need as being a want for gainful employment, we will end up with protectionism. We will see laws prohibiting certain kinds of automation. And we will see a fight between different classes as one class feels entitled to work, and another class feels entitled to save money on labor.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#229

Post by DougN7 »

jganetsk wrote: post #114
DougN7 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to think you're trolling. You're zeroing in on phrases and ignoring the principles they explain. And what is a 'healthy way' for prices to change for basic needs? They aren't going to drop. Any other change hurts the poor.

Ok, let's spell it out with a basic example You said we are going to give $12 billion to the poor There is $747 billion of credit card debt in the United States. Much of that comes from lending in the past to the poor to finance their basic needs. $747 billion > $12 billion It is possible that all of 1 year's basic income entirely goes toward paying off credit card debt. In this scenario: 1) The poor receive a much n…

Paying off debt is good. Once it's paid off, that money will probably go to goods and services (if you say the poor will save it instead, they weren't that poor to begin with).

So your scenario of paying off debt for one year just pushes the inevitable out one year.

And that one time price change will cancel out the benefit of the UBI. It has to, otherwise companies are not getting the most profit they can (they won't do that), or we magically have unending goods and services. Supply and demand can't be overcome in a market economy of scare resources.

Raising the minimum wage eventually has a similar effect. Ask yourself why a loaf of bread isn't $0.05 any more (it surely was sometime in the past 200 years). The obvious answer is inflation. But why? Why did prices increase over time? What economic pressure caused that?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#230

Post by TulliusCicero »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #223
chriskanan wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's one of the biggest open questions with UBI. What percent of people would use UBI to do productive or self-improving works vs those that solely play video games, watch TV, and feel like life is meaningless? I think psychologically, people need something to do with themselves. However, a counter argument is that many of the people that UBI may benefit the most might have jobs that they loathe. I'd love t…

When I was made unemployed, it was the lack of money that made me feel undignified. I couldn't feed my kids and had to as for handouts. UBI would have been amazing. I would have spent the money on food, shelter and heating. I would have spent the time writing software and trying to start a company.

There are absolutely people like you, and absolutely people who will just play WoW all day, every day. The question is, how many of each?
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