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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#101

Post by c22 »

witty_username wrote: post #79
jganetsk wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the important part here labor or output? Automation means people working less with output increasing.

The Laffer curve deals with output from labor. When you tax someone you reduce the money they get per unit work, i.e. their wage. If the wage is too low they might not find it worth doing the work. If I'm a paid shill/some job and I'm taxed 99%, I might stop shilling because the effort outweighs my salary. Regarding automation, see the lump of labour fallacy. Humans will just switch to tasks that aren't automated (th…

Once we've reached utopia/post-scarcity society how will we make sure that poor people get fed?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#102

Post by vessenes »

programmarchy wrote: post #23

UBI is attempting to cloak itself in free market rhetoric, but it's bullshit. Yes it may "incentivize" some individuals to work, but only by disincentivizing others. It takes money from top wealth producers, discouraging their labor, and gives it to people who aren't producing as much wealth, effectively subsidizing unproductive work. This will make everyone poorer in the long run. The struggling artist meme is an ap…

I make well above the basic income, so I presume most UBIs would be a net cost to me.

However, I cannot imagine that a UBI-related tax would in any way disincentivize me from working, especially if it's applied across incomes.

In fact, even for someone like me, I think the UBI would provide just a bit more emotional security -- knowledge that if a job or investment risk I took didn't pay out, there would still be food and housing for my family.

In direct contravention of your story about artists, I recommend you read this article by Ann Bauer about how being rich is nearly necessary to make it as a novelist: http://www.salon.com/2015/01/25/sponsored_by_my_husband_why_...

Going from anecdotes, it is at least as easy to imagine a future in which better art and writing are created than can be created now as lifestyle security is extended to more creative people.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#103

Post by dingdongding »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #64
prodmerc wrote: post #15

If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. So you will still need a job if you want all three of those things, not sit around and contemplate what you should do with your life. It's sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance. Givi…

Why would the prices change? The demand hasn't changed? The supply hasn't changed? People are still buying the same basic things they did before. The money is simply shifted around from the rich to the poor?

Because this will give income to people who don't have amount of money right now. They will also come in market to buy things. So total number of people buying stuff will increase.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#104

Post by akjainaj »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #64
prodmerc wrote: post #15

If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. So you will still need a job if you want all three of those things, not sit around and contemplate what you should do with your life. It's sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance. Givi…

Why would the prices change? The demand hasn't changed? The supply hasn't changed? People are still buying the same basic things they did before. The money is simply shifted around from the rich to the poor?

I have the theory that if you give money to everybody, prices will go up because sellers will figure they can increase the price of everything without it negatively affecting sales, since every buyer simply has more money to spare, no excuses.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#105

Post by delinka »

jakeogh wrote: post #93

Merely a way to control people. It's dishonest to pretend that it's for everyone, the first thing that will happen if you wrong the power structure is it will withdraw funding. Not that I am particularly worried, this will never happen in the United States. China on the other hand, I bet they would love to tie this to their human scoring system.

"...if you wrong the power structure is it will withdraw funding."

I have the same fear, that this would be a tool used to encourage conformance. If not initially, then in time. Even in the US (but as you say, we're not likely to adopt basic income in the US.)

One would hope, however, that this would become a basic right, and not one that can be revoked for any reason whatsoever, even criminal convictions (perhaps especially criminal convictions.)

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#106

Post by anonfunction »

jakeogh wrote: post #95
nickthemagicman wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the prices change? The demand hasn't changed? The supply hasn't changed? People are still buying the same basic things they did before. The money is simply shifted around from the rich to the poor?

"shifted around" is nice euphemism for theft.

With that logic all taxes and social policies are theft.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#108

Post by vectorpush »

Almost everyone here seems to be discussing the economic challenges of UBI, but so far I haven't seen much mention of the political challenges. UBI is a completely unworkable concept in the U.S.A and likely many European countries as well. American citizens will be literally shooting eachother in the streets before they accept such a massive wealth redistribution mechanism, and that resistance will be mostly made up of the masses that could benefit from it, to say nothing of the powerful that will leverage the full extent of their influence to prevent their gains from being redistributed.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#109

Post by atom-morgan »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #43
prodmerc wrote: post #15

If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. So you will still need a job if you want all three of those things, not sit around and contemplate what you should do with your life. It's sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance. Givi…

1) Americans currently consume (not necessarily eat) 3800 kcals/day of food without basic income. Are you saying that basic income will make that number go up? 2) The American housing market is very messed up and far from a free market, so any prediction up or down is very difficult. I predict that Basic Income will cause a bunch of people to move from high cost cities like NYC & SF into low cost areas so that they c…

> 1) Americans currently consume (not necessarily eat) 3800 kcals/day of food without basic income. Are you saying that basic income will make that number go up?

I think they were referring to the cost of food, not the calories.

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