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Telecommunications company Avaya files for bankruptcy

reuters.com

41–50 of 75 posts

Re: Telecommunications company Avaya files for bankruptcy

#41

I have been working at avaya for the last couple years and I have been scratching my head trying to understand how this company works and how it got into this situation. On one hand its a company thats hasn't made a profit in 10 years but on the other it takes in a billion every quarter. When you look at the numbers it turns out it is paying tens of millions to service the interest on its massive debt... it would be…

This is classic Wall Street private equity behavior. Use borrowed money to buy the company, loot the place, and flip it. It's pure parasitic behavior but not illegal.

I would advise anyone working at a company acquired by private equity to bail out ASAP. It is just a matter of time before you get screwed. Especially don't get left with a bunch of company stock.

I do wonder why creditors keep funding these PE deals and why anyone participates in their share offerings. You're asking to get taken.

Re: Telecommunications company Avaya files for bankruptcy

#42
post #13

Not to take away from challenges of the legacy telecommunications industry right now, but this article slides in the private equity LBO part of Avaya's story at the very end - and then only hints at what happened here. I hope the pensioners and benefits obligations get paid the money they are owed ASAP, because this is a classic story of private equity (Silver and TPG) financially engineering a cash-siphon from a dyi…

[deleted]

Re: Telecommunications company Avaya files for bankruptcy

#44
Off-topic tale: This brings back the memory of my first serious security job, 14 years ago or so. I had to pen test a big corporate-like network from the inside so I was left with my laptop in a cubicle and the mission to own something. I was young, inexperienced and a bit scared by the size of the network. After some minutes I had a general map of the network, there were some separated LANs and in the middle of them all it was this Avaya Cajun managed thing. I ran some google queries and the second or third result showed up a CVE, the Avaya firmware had a hidden admin account. Total time used, 10-15 mins.

I did not have to go any further, owning the Avaya was game over and got some pats on the back from my employer and the clients. I had prepared a quite extensive plan of action, been my first gig I had to show. The laptop was loaded of tools, even some "cool" exploits but at the end it all came down to a few nmap scans and a google query. I felt dissapointed. Also, after the pen test I spent some (very) boring weeks documenting, inventorying, and documenting again. It made me reconsider how deep I wanted to dive into security audits.

Re: Telecommunications company Avaya files for bankruptcy

#45

I have been working at avaya for the last couple years and I have been scratching my head trying to understand how this company works and how it got into this situation. On one hand its a company thats hasn't made a profit in 10 years but on the other it takes in a billion every quarter. When you look at the numbers it turns out it is paying tens of millions to service the interest on its massive debt... it would be…

This is classic Wall Street private equity behavior. Use borrowed money to buy the company, loot the place, and flip it. It's pure parasitic behavior but not illegal. I would advise anyone working at a company acquired by private equity to bail out ASAP. It is just a matter of time before you get screwed. Especially don't get left with a bunch of company stock. I do wonder why creditors keep funding these PE deals an…

What about Dell?

Re: Telecommunications company Avaya files for bankruptcy

#46

I have been working at avaya for the last couple years and I have been scratching my head trying to understand how this company works and how it got into this situation. On one hand its a company thats hasn't made a profit in 10 years but on the other it takes in a billion every quarter. When you look at the numbers it turns out it is paying tens of millions to service the interest on its massive debt... it would be…

This is classic Wall Street private equity behavior. Use borrowed money to buy the company, loot the place, and flip it. It's pure parasitic behavior but not illegal. I would advise anyone working at a company acquired by private equity to bail out ASAP. It is just a matter of time before you get screwed. Especially don't get left with a bunch of company stock. I do wonder why creditors keep funding these PE deals an…

Here is where I am struggling with... did the venture guys actually make money in this case or did they make such a balls of it that they actually lost significant amounts of their own money? Would they have 'Looted' the place by paying out bonus to themselves as employees, could they have done this to such an extent that over time it covered the initial capital they put in to take Avaya over?

Re: Telecommunications company Avaya files for bankruptcy

#47
post #13

Not to take away from challenges of the legacy telecommunications industry right now, but this article slides in the private equity LBO part of Avaya's story at the very end - and then only hints at what happened here. I hope the pensioners and benefits obligations get paid the money they are owed ASAP, because this is a classic story of private equity (Silver and TPG) financially engineering a cash-siphon from a dyi…

"But this was a deal designed to fail from the start." Can you elaborate on this further? I just made a comment earlier about how Avaya ended up in this situation and I have had a feeling, based on how the last few years have played out, that you might be right: I just dont understand how the owners could have run the company the way they did and make out with a profit.

What would you like to know? I read your comment and I think you pretty much get the gist of it, but if you have q's about how private equity (PE) works in this situation I'm happy to try to answer.

As for this deal. First it was 10+ years so feel free to call bullshit on my memory but it felt like amateur hours as if SL/TPG let their new MBA hires run it or people just screwed up when structuring the deal and unsurprisingly it's been a disaster ever since. Some examples of what I mean:

TL;DR buying a knowingly bad business, buying it at auction for a 28% premium, overloading it with clearly too much debt (even by risk-lovers standards), showing little commitment as owners to planning/doing the hands on operations work needed to fix/change/revive a mature obsolescing tech company, nor put in a management team that seemed serious about it either.

It appears SL/TPG saw the prospects for Avaya were weak and did the deal anyway[1]. In case you don't have access to WSJ, article talks about TPG viewing Avaya as a "buggy-whip business" at risk of being outmoded.

That's not so bad on its own. Obsolescing/dying "buggy-whip businesses" are just a reality of the business world. Such companies can still have value and potential. But what's odd is SL/TPG not only stayed in the deal but they bought in at a premium on auction. Meaning they had to fight against other buyers to win the deal and then they paid a premium of ~28% for it. OK guys...Auctions are a joke of a way to buy any business to begin with and such auction deals deserve the little to no respect they get in the PE industry.

(side note: This inevitable obsolescence in a business model is especially true in the tech space lately where the moment you launch a startup or introduce a new product the process of it becoming outdated has already started. All tech companies, big or bedroom, worry about keeping up with the next tech wave and there is no formula to avoid being a one-hit wonder. Of course some companies are able to hang on longer and stay big longer than others (ie "the by luck or by fuck clause" also known as the SV/DC two-step), but anyone who thinks the big FANGs of today will for sure be around in 10 years should read more tech industry history. Every tech business is dying just some faster than others).

As for the Avaya debt. LBO's need debt and debt is not necessarily bad when it comes to buying companies. The analogy for LBO debt is often that it's like buying a house. I guess in the Avaya case it's maybe like a house in Detroit. But if you have a $1MM and want to buy a house it may be better not to use the whole $1Million on the house. Put down $100k and take a $900k mortgage from a bank. Put your other $900k into other investments. At the end of it one should hopefully be better off vs. putting all your eggs in one basket. So while debt to buy companies can be a good idea in theory it doesn't always work out due to just chance and also because the investment industry has a small but news-worthy population of criminals and fucking idiots.

In the case of Avaya it was clear as day they used too much debt. Everyone could see it and there were journalists/articles where the high debt issue was brought up with Avaya management. I don't know if it was negligence or malice or what.

If things don't go well in an LBO and the company has to file for bankruptcy the bondholders lose. But that's not so bad, the bondholders should have known the risks of the investment going in and they were paid for that risk. Don't cry for them.

This reply has gotten long. I will add Kevin Kennedy has not done a good job as CEO...Avaya is spending money on soccer stadium names and has fake filed for IPO how many times then changed its mind? Also what really happened with Louis D'Ambrosio? He leaves suddenly due to medical reasons then went to be CEO of Sears a few years later. SL/TPG put Charles Giancarlo in as a replacement who lasted a year with them?

Lastly, Private Equity and LBOs have the potential to be good for companies and investors and employees. Businesses die and if someone sees a chance to make some money trying to revive it or wants to get paid to dismantle it, that's ok. But this should be done primum non nocere from day 1. This includes accurately telling employees and future investors of the risks of doing the turnaround and it should not be done with outstanding liabilities owned to employee pension plans. Frankly, in my personal opinion Avaya has been run so poorly over the last few years, with risks that did not make sense, that a crime with lapse of fiduciary duty may have occurred.

[1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/avaya-how-an-8-billion-tech-buyo...

Re: Telecommunications company Avaya files for bankruptcy

#48
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, Avaya does run on common x86 servers as well as virtualized and has for many years. Linux and Xen if fact. Many implementations of freeswitch/asterisk fell apart as they simply don't scale to thousands of users. Yes, I know about Kamailio. Scale doesn't just mean have 50,000 endpoints register to the system and handle the busy hour call volume. It needs to be secure (Avaya encrypts H.323 and SIP very easily (C…

This is true, but new competitors also haven't been around as long as Avaya. Before Asterisk and other software hit the market, there were four players - Avaya, Cisco, Mitel and Nortel. Now there are dozens of large players and hundreds of medium sized ones. These companies are gaining market share in the enterprise - just checkout the exhibitor list for enterprise connect 17.

In addition, there are random local dudes who can set up an office Asterisk system based on commodity hardware for like $2000, and whom you can pay another $200 every couple of years when something needs to be changed. An Avaya system can't get close to that.

Re: Telecommunications company Avaya files for bankruptcy

#49

They took a huge loan, bought the company and funneled its "profits" to the loan and now it's bankrupt? How is that legal?

That is the basis of the private equity industry. Sometimes there's more cashflow than they expected so the firm doesn't go belly-up before they can peddle it, but that's not because PE dudes are any good at running a business. It's just as common to get less cashflow than they expected, and have the whole thing collapse without paying them.

In a previous life I got a close-up view of Carlyle attempting this with a former Verizon business, only to discover that Verizon can put short pants on crooked business execs. That office tower was stacked to the ceilings with deadwood. Equal parts fascinating and horrifying.

Re: Telecommunications company Avaya files for bankruptcy

#50
post #33
post #4

A friend of mine closed his company in 2013 and had a full avaya system with 40 phones and latest software that he could not even give away. Eventually some kids from a local hackerspace came and hauled away the whole lot. They were after the headsets and lcds.

I think this is pretty standard in the pbx business. The manufacturers don't give out the complete documentation for the system, so it is useless without paying money to your local dealer. Your local dealer doesn't want to help you with a used system, he'd prefer to sell you a brand new one. Source: I work for a dealer.

I worked for a dealer. The configuration utility for Cisco PBXes (piece of crap, by the way) can only be downloaded by certified Cisco partners. Or BitTorrent.
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