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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#11

Post by aianus »

lisivka wrote: post #7
Tepix wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about machines doing most of the jobs so there are only a few jobs left? The value the machines generate would be enough to generate the basic income. Why is it impossible?

So, I, programmer, will be forced to work 12 hours per day to keep robots firmware up to date, while everybody else will enjoy free ride? Sorry, it will not work: I will chose free ride too. Why not just decrease number of working hours to say 2 per day, but for everybody, instead?

> Sorry, it will not work: I will chose free ride too.

Maybe you would, but I think most people would rather have a job and be fabulously wealthy relative to those surviving on UBI alone. See: all the people who work 60h a week in SF making $200k instead of chilling at a bank working 35h for $80k.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#12

Post by wakkaflokka »

lisivka wrote: post #7
Tepix wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about machines doing most of the jobs so there are only a few jobs left? The value the machines generate would be enough to generate the basic income. Why is it impossible?

So, I, programmer, will be forced to work 12 hours per day to keep robots firmware up to date, while everybody else will enjoy free ride? Sorry, it will not work: I will chose free ride too. Why not just decrease number of working hours to say 2 per day, but for everybody, instead?

I would hope that working 12 hours a day to keep robots firmware up to date would command a lot more money than a basic income would?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#15

Post by prodmerc »

If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food.

So you will still need a job if you want all three of those things, not sit around and contemplate what you should do with your life.

It's sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance.

Giving money/help selectively to those who need it right now (and can prove it, i.e. no job but looking for one) is still better than UBI.

Prove me wrong.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#16

Post by cocoa19 »

Tepix wrote: post #5
omilu wrote: post #2

>>>Basic income guarantees you a monthly starting salary above the poverty line for the rest of your life If the poverty line stayed constant, basic income is a no-brainer. But basic income makes the cost of goods rise. Demand for goods increases, but supply diminishes. Nobody will do the crap jobs without higher pay, raising the price of everything. Basic income is impossible.

What about machines doing most of the jobs so there are only a few jobs left? The value the machines generate would be enough to generate the basic income. Why is it impossible?

It's difficult with a free market. If income goes up for everyone, people can spend more on basic necessities. Robot owners will make prices higher to maximize profit.

A few solutions: 1)Have the government set prices for basic necessities. 2)The government owns companies that produce basic necessities. 3)Replace capitalism.

All the solutions above have its drawbacks.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#17

Post by jganetsk »

omilu wrote: post #2

>>>Basic income guarantees you a monthly starting salary above the poverty line for the rest of your life If the poverty line stayed constant, basic income is a no-brainer. But basic income makes the cost of goods rise. Demand for goods increases, but supply diminishes. Nobody will do the crap jobs without higher pay, raising the price of everything. Basic income is impossible.

Claims are misleading, wrong, and unsupported.

> Demand for goods increases.

Citation needed. Demand for some goods will possibly decrease: like payday loans or bankruptcy law. Demand for luxury goods won't change at all: yachts, private jets. But even the demand for Big Macs probably won't change all that much. Apply the same exercise to a bunch of other sundry cases: buying a house, life-saving medication, buying a smartphone. You will quickly realize that you cannot categorically state that "demand for goods increases". And more precisely, it is almost impossible to demonstrate that demand will increase the same amount for all kinds of goods. You really need to investigate how much demand will increase for each particular kind of good.

> Supply diminishes.

Citation needed. One thing for which supply will likely diminish: consumer debt assets. Since presumably the introduction of basic income will lead to a decrease in consumer debt. But "goods" in general? What basis do you have for saying this?

> Nobody will do the crap jobs without higher pay, raising the price of everything.

Citation needed. Business owners are very interested in replacing crap jobs with automation. Also, in general, the crappiest jobs today are done by illegal immigrants, who presumably wouldn't be receiving basic income in the future.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#18

Post by lisivka »

aianus wrote: post #11
lisivka wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I, programmer, will be forced to work 12 hours per day to keep robots firmware up to date, while everybody else will enjoy free ride? Sorry, it will not work: I will chose free ride too. Why not just decrease number of working hours to say 2 per day, but for everybody, instead?

> Sorry, it will not work: I will chose free ride too. Maybe you would, but I think most people would rather have a job and be fabulously wealthy relative to those surviving on UBI alone. See: all the people who work 60h a week in SF making $200k instead of chilling at a bank working 35h for $80k.

Politics will tell people that they will raise basic income to win election. To raise income, they will raise taxes, so I will work 80h for $20K instead of $200K.

It's not a joke: post-USSR countries already have exactly this problem.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#19

Post by josscrowcroft »

lisivka wrote: post #7
Tepix wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about machines doing most of the jobs so there are only a few jobs left? The value the machines generate would be enough to generate the basic income. Why is it impossible?

So, I, programmer, will be forced to work 12 hours per day to keep robots firmware up to date, while everybody else will enjoy free ride? Sorry, it will not work: I will chose free ride too. Why not just decrease number of working hours to say 2 per day, but for everybody, instead?

Alternatively - under UBI - you may decide to work 6 hours per day, and enjoy the earned income in addition to the regular Basic Income payment, all the while knowing that you can leave (or switch employer) any time without fear of destitution.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#20

Post by lisivka »

wakkaflokka wrote: post #12
lisivka wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I, programmer, will be forced to work 12 hours per day to keep robots firmware up to date, while everybody else will enjoy free ride? Sorry, it will not work: I will chose free ride too. Why not just decrease number of working hours to say 2 per day, but for everybody, instead?

I would hope that working 12 hours a day to keep robots firmware up to date would command a lot more money than a basic income would?

Taxes will eat that income with easy: 50% tax on firm, 50% tax on worker before salary, 30% tax on worker after salary, 18% tax into basic income fund, 20% VAT, and hundreds of other, smaller taxes.
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