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Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

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Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#171

Post by asdfasdfa11112 »

hackuser wrote: post #10

Most innovation and progress now is at the city level (I'm not the first to say it). Name the last thing government achieved at a national level in the U.S. - there's health care, but that's now looking shaky. The priority of one major party in the U.S. is to shut down government as much as possible; that party can block progress everywhere but in cities, where they have no power for now. However, they are trying to…

It is important, from a high level, that innovation occur in limited scale. That prevents bad things from cascading everything.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#172

Post by afastow »

WalterBright wrote: post #163
quickben wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the point. Companies are offering jobs and thus in a position of power.

I've been on both sides - employer and employee. As an employer, the notion I had all this power over people is pretty eyebrow raising. If an employee didn't like something, he was out the door and there was nothing I could do about it. As an employee, if I didn't like something, I was out the door and there was nothing the employer could do about it.

Given you are posting on hacker news there is a high chance you are in the tech industry. What you are describing is far easier for tech employees than it is for employees in most other fields.

I am in the tech industry but have several friends in various non-tech fields and sometimes the stuff they put up with at their jobs amazes me. But when I ask why they don't just leave the answer is that they don't want to start a potentially lengthy job search right then or that they aren't sure they can find a significantly better one.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#173

Post by re_todd »

It always amazes me when I hear about people asking this question. Don't these hiring managers consider for a second how intrusive and rude it is? Aren't they concerned they may come across as douchebags for asking it? And yet I've been asked this several times by people that act like it's no big deal, like asking how was the traffic on the way in. Are they under pressure from the top? Or are hiring managers in general lacking in scruples?

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#174

Post by problems »

re_todd wrote: post #173

It always amazes me when I hear about people asking this question. Don't these hiring managers consider for a second how intrusive and rude it is? Aren't they concerned they may come across as douchebags for asking it? And yet I've been asked this several times by people that act like it's no big deal, like asking how was the traffic on the way in. Are they under pressure from the top? Or are hiring managers in gener…

I think it actually plays both ways - it's a way for me to give them an idea of what I'm expecting.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#175

Post by WalterBright »

afastow wrote: post #172
WalterBright wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on both sides - employer and employee. As an employer, the notion I had all this power over people is pretty eyebrow raising. If an employee didn't like something, he was out the door and there was nothing I could do about it. As an employee, if I didn't like something, I was out the door and there was nothing the employer could do about it.

Given you are posting on hacker news there is a high chance you are in the tech industry. What you are describing is far easier for tech employees than it is for employees in most other fields. I am in the tech industry but have several friends in various non-tech fields and sometimes the stuff they put up with at their jobs amazes me. But when I ask why they don't just leave the answer is that they don't want to sta…

I've hired non-tech people, and have been a non-tech employee, too. Same story.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#176

Post by pimlottc »

gdulli wrote: post #114

That's too bad. My salary history tells a good story about me, that employers have found me more valuable than average. It's a pretty tangible and direct signal. In an interview it's convenient for them to ask and for me not to have to awkwardly bring it up.

I should think it would be easier for you to avoid the awkwardness and bring it up anyway than it is for people to resist the pressure of having to answer the question now.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#177

Post by vertex-four »

lend000 wrote: post #54
pasquinelli wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure, i agree, so in the spirit of free exchange of information, let's require employers to list their salary range in all job listings, and let's require employers to give salary statistics to prospective employees before salary negotiations. if an employer doesn't want to disclose that information, then they are free to not hire anyone.

Coercion is not freedom my friend -- anything with the word "Require" is a safe bet to be a confused argument for freedom. But this would be a moot point regardless, because: https://www.glassdoor.com/index.htm

A functioning free market depends on getting as close to perfect information as you can get. You can either have a functioning free market, or freedom to hide information.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#178

Post by afastow »

winter_blue wrote: post #12
_m8fo wrote: post #3

A society truly run by the people, ala individuals, would have banned this long ago. Just think about it: for an average person, what benefit do they receive by allowing employers to ask about past or current salary information? None. Wouldn't be surprised if there have been measures to ban this that were ultimately struck down by business people. The less information that's shared with employers, the more employers…

> A society truly run by the people, ala individuals, would have banned this I'm libertarian-leaning, and statements like these bother me deeply. If I'm an employer, why ban me from asking some question to a prospective employee? It's a restriction on the employer's freedom. The job applicant has a right to decline to answer my question (and I have a right to decline to offer a job). Regulating what questions I can a…

> If I'm an employer, why ban me from asking some question to a prospective employee?

The reason to ban employers from asking this specific question is because it makes it easier to perpetuate a cycle where a person who is underpaid at one point in their career continues to be underpaid in the future. Note that I am only saying it makes it easier to perpetuate that cycle. I am not arguing that it guarantees that cycle for everyone.

> It's a restriction on the employer's freedom.

It absolutely is. Why is that a problem in this specific case? It is not being restricted arbitrarily. I just described the clear and rational reason to want to restrict employers' freedom to ask for a candidate's salary history.

At that point simply stating that it violates a freedom isn't good enough. You need to either:

A) Argue that I am wrong and asking for a salary history doesn't make it easier to perpetuate a cycle of someone being underpaid. Note that saying "They could refuse to answer" or "They could lie" or "They could find a different employer who doesn't ask" is not arguing that I am wrong. I agree that all of those things are possible. I agree that some people will actually do them and sometimes that will cause them to stop being underpaid. But I also know that some people will not do those things and will tell the employer their previous salary and are more likely to continue to be underpaid as a result.

B) Argue that someone being underpaid relative to others with the same skills and responsibilities is not a negative thing and so there is no need to try to prevent it.

C) Argue that restricting the specific freedom of employers to ask for a candidate's salary history causes more harm than it prevents. It is definitely a good rule of thumb that restricting freedom is normally bad, but that does not mean it is inherently bad to restrict any freedom. For any specific freedom there will be specific reasons why it is a problem to restrict it. If you ask me why it's a problem to restrict the freedom of the press to report negative things about world leaders, I can give you specific reasons. If you ask me why it's a problem to restrict the freedom of a gay couple to marry, I can give you specific reasons. But if you ask me why it's a problem to restrict the freedom of employers to ask for salary histories, I honestly can't think of a specific reason.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#179

Post by davej »

I'll either politely refuse to answer or if I have thought about it beforehand then I'll give a number that guides them towards the salary I am looking for this time around.

I don't really mind the question. It's a little rude and it's only asked to get a gauge of salary expectations so why not ask what the current salary expectations are directly.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#180

Post by Jarwain »

WalterBright wrote: post #175
afastow wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given you are posting on hacker news there is a high chance you are in the tech industry. What you are describing is far easier for tech employees than it is for employees in most other fields. I am in the tech industry but have several friends in various non-tech fields and sometimes the stuff they put up with at their jobs amazes me. But when I ask why they don't just leave the answer is that they don't want to sta…

I've hired non-tech people, and have been a non-tech employee, too. Same story.

If I had to guess, the discrepancy in your and afastow's experiences is largely dependent on the relevant field and the market for jobs

An individual's tolerance to go into the job search experience is also a factor, likely dependent on their financial situation

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