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Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

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Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#121

Post by stephen_g »

meanduck wrote: post #112
lend000 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have a very naive, non-nuanced, and absolutist view of the world. Already excited for the personal attacks and logical fallacies which await. > Are you serious? Do you really think Glassdoor is a legitimate authority for salary at companies? They do zero verification and are mostly dependent on people's honesty. Personally, I've signed up for no less than 10 Glassdoor accounts with companies I've never worked f…

HN is toast. Its being overrun by statists/socialists.

I think one would have to be extremely far right to view the predominate view of HN as 'socialist'... But as for statist, it depends on how you define the word, but in an economic sense at least, the more I talk to libertarians, the more I associate that word with 'realist'.

There are lots of nice ideals in voluntarism and total free-market economics, but I'm less and less convinced that they could work at any significant scale in the real world...

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#122

Post by Eridrus »

hackuser wrote: post #7

An important detail: Comcast, backed by the local Chamber of Commerce, has threatened to sue the city over this law. On what basis? The corporation's Constitutional First Amendment free speech right to ask the question: http://www.investopedia.com/news/comcast-threatens-sue-city-... Are these the same free speech rights the Supreme Court recently bestowed on the corporations? I remember that at the time legal analyst…

Comcast's resistance makes it seem like this is a good idea, but I do wonder if this law will actually achieve anything.

Employers will just low ball people, and those who have higher salaries will bargain more and bring up their salary, and people with low salaries will just accept the low ball...

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#123

Post by jackbrian »

> Councilman William Greenlee, a Democrat, who sponsored the bill, says the measure wouldn’t prevent employers from setting a fair salary, bar salary negotiations with prospective hires, or keep job candidates from voluntarily sharing their pay history. But if passed, violators who quizzed would-be hires about salary could face fines up to $2,000.

Even if passed, the penalty hardly seems disincentivizing.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#124

Post by meanduck »

czep wrote: post #79
pliny wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It does not require a great deal of imagination to understand that a large corporation and single prospective employee are not equal parties. If you fail to get a job, you will starve. If Comcast fails to hire you, they most clearly will not face an existential crisis. Is Comcast the only company hiring people? If you don't get a job with Comcast you get a job with a different company. That is a market, many sellers…

Comcast is simply the example here. Yes you can look for another employer, but if they are doing the same thing -- requiring disclosure of salary history -- then in aggregate this will put more negotiating power in the hands of employers and thus reduce workers' incomes.

Do you think market will forget this ? Govts seem to forget that despite being big, they are market actors themselves. And it wont be the Comcasts but many SMBs.

In todays volatile world, noones existence is certain. And govts need to realize this soon before they spend all of their capitals like this.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#125

Post by meanduck »

stephen_g wrote: post #121
meanduck wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is toast. Its being overrun by statists/socialists.

I think one would have to be extremely far right to view the predominate view of HN as 'socialist'... But as for statist, it depends on how you define the word, but in an economic sense at least, the more I talk to libertarians, the more I associate that word with 'realist'. There are lots of nice ideals in voluntarism and total free-market economics, but I'm less and less convinced that they could work at any signif…

If free-market cannot solve this nothing will. No actor (including Govt) has mental capicity to understand everything in this world.

Free-market solves everthing best with most stability.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#126

Post by douche »

jackbrian wrote: post #123

> Councilman William Greenlee, a Democrat, who sponsored the bill, says the measure wouldn’t prevent employers from setting a fair salary, bar salary negotiations with prospective hires, or keep job candidates from voluntarily sharing their pay history. But if passed, violators who quizzed would-be hires about salary could face fines up to $2,000. Even if passed, the penalty hardly seems disincentivizing.

A proportional penalty based on the salary of the position would make more sense. If you're hiring at McDonalds at minimum wage, $2000 is a bigger penalty than if you're hiring an engineer.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#127

Post by breser »

gesman wrote: post #4

Asking doesn't hurt anyone. However giving certain answers could. What prevents employees from claiming that this information is "confidential" (polite version of "it's not your business"). Or outright lying about it?

My employer asks this question. I refused to answer when asked in person/phone. As we got further in the hiring process they asked as part of the form they fill in to setup the background check. Again I refused to answer this question. I failed the background check due to this.

When we discussed it they said it was necessary so they could verify if I had lied about my salary when I'd given it previously. I pointed out that I had never given this information. HR insisted that I must have since they require it. Round and round we went for a while.

Eventually they let it go and hired me anyway.

So to answer your question. Companies will typically call up your previous employer and ask if the salary you provided them is correct.

Lying on your application form is almost always cause to fire. So if they ever find out you lied you about your previous salary you can be fired on the spot.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#128

Post by breser »

hackuser wrote: post #7

An important detail: Comcast, backed by the local Chamber of Commerce, has threatened to sue the city over this law. On what basis? The corporation's Constitutional First Amendment free speech right to ask the question: http://www.investopedia.com/news/comcast-threatens-sue-city-... Are these the same free speech rights the Supreme Court recently bestowed on the corporations? I remember that at the time legal analyst…

I see a lot of people debating free speech rights. There's a simple solution to this. Don't write the law such that it's illegal to ask the question. Write the law such that it's illegal to use the information in hiring decisions or determining how much to pay. If the people involved with making those decisions have that information consider that prima facia proof that the information was used that way.

Now they have their free speech rights. They can indeed ask the question. But parties responsible for certain things cannot have access to that information.

Most reasonable companies will simply not bother to ask rather than jumping through the hoops to do so. But further most people won't have a reason to ask because the information can't be used for the normal reasons to ask.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#129

Post by jimbokun »

TheSageMage wrote: post #39
ch4s3 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because there is a very large disparity in power and information. A few points: 1. You will always need the job more than Comcast will need you (unless you're unusually skilled, most workers aren't) 2. Comcast knows how much the pay every one of their employees, you the job seeker do not. 3. Comcast is only asking so they can figure out the lowest pay you'll accept. You have no way to figure out how high the…

I think all your other points are good, but a response to #4. I think one issue might be that it's ambiguous to enforce. If implemented, could an employer not rephrase the question: "How much would you like to get paid?" and still get away with the same discrimination? Is the final solution here a race to the bottom to normalize wages to prevent perceived discrimination based on non-quantifiable metrics?

"How much would you like to get paid" pretty much has to be asked and answered at some point if there is going Robb's an employment relationship. "How much did you make previously" does not.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#130

Post by meanduck »

quickben wrote: post #120
intrasight wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do. When Fox was asked why they lie, their answer was basically free speech.

They are heavily vested in money guiding them in a given direction based on who likes them. On paper they are free speech, in reality, they are tightly bounded where they found themselves, and afraid to threaten the bottom line.

Free Speech != Unbiased Speech.

If state can forbid you speaking something, you dont have free speech. Money does not come into equation when we talk about free speech.

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