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Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

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Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#91

Post by sidlls »

lend000 wrote: post #57
phkahler wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most companies have multiple employees, where most employees only have one employer. You are 1/n to them and they are everything to you. The power differential is staggering particularly for a cable company.

> You are 1/n to them and they are everything to you This is false! You are 1/n to them and they are 1/m to you. Where n=number of job seekers and m=number of employers. Both numbers are very high. EDIT: You can have many employers over your lifetime, and you are not bound to any one during your job search. m does not equal 1.

Most of the time m is a number smaller than 10. For many small businesses n might be the same order of magnitude, but for often it is at least an order of magnitude greater. The ratios just aren't close in most cases.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#92

Post by jnordwick »

czep wrote: post #78
krapp wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing about a free market requires all power dynamics to be equal among all participants - that would be impossible without regulation, and a free market must by definition be free of any regulatory influence.

No, a free market is not defined by absence of regulation! Even fervent laissez-faire economists admit the necessity of appropriate regulations: contract enforcement rules, avoidance of monopolies, a system of law and order for handling disputes, etc. A free market is defined as an exchange where both sides have access to the same information.

> A free market is defined as an exchange where both sides have access to the same information.

That is completely false. Asymmetric information and imperfect information are expected with free markets.

The price of gathering information is very well studied.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#93

Post by wutbrodo »

gambiting wrote: post #76
jimnotgym wrote: post #61

Interesting that various people here are horrified by restrictions on what you can ask in an interview. In the UK there are various restrictions on what you are allowed to ask, such as a candidates age. Actually the main risk to a business from this is a careless interviewer asking by mistake. An enlightened employer should not find any of this restricting at all. All of the worst interviewers I have faced have alway…

I personally know of a case where someone got rejected because they asked for too much compared to his previous salary, even though the person who got hired was offered more money(but it was a smaller increase percentage wise over his previous job). Basically guy was brilliant in the interview, engineering team said they want him, but HR rejected him because he said he wants 80k, while he was making 60k previously(he…

Wow, that HR sounds utterly incompetent.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#95

Post by JoshTriplett »

cmdrfred wrote: post #80
JoshTriplett wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't speech, that's trespassing. Or would you like people to be able to freely visit your home without your "interference"? On the other hand, union representatives are free to speak to employees outside the workplace; that's speech. (And freedom of association, for that matter.)

It isn't trespassing when a OSHA inspector visits a faculty. So it does appear that exceptions exist. Why not in this case?

An OSHA inspector is a government official, performing inspections in the course of their duties to ensure compliance with health and safety regulations; they can only do so as precisely prescribed by said regulations. Along the same lines, it isn't trespassing if the police come to your home with a warrant in accordance with due process to investigate a possible crime.

Neither of those serves as precedent to allow a random non-governmental person access to private property for any other reason.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#96

Post by cmdrfred »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #95
cmdrfred wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't trespassing when a OSHA inspector visits a faculty. So it does appear that exceptions exist. Why not in this case?

An OSHA inspector is a government official, performing inspections in the course of their duties to ensure compliance with health and safety regulations; they can only do so as precisely prescribed by said regulations. Along the same lines, it isn't trespassing if the police come to your home with a warrant in accordance with due process to investigate a possible crime. Neither of those serves as precedent to allow a…

So its just a matter of phrasing. If I were to create a governmental body responsible in assisting labor unions in communicating with workers. Then such a representative could be granted that power?

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#97

Post by general_ai »

tn13 wrote: post #90
general_ai wrote: post #87

Can we go a little further than this? Can we require employers to post the details of the compensation package that comes with each job? That would save a lot of time for all involved and obviate the need to even ask this question.

No. It will stop us from bargaining and pushing for biding wars.

You'll just front load the "bidding war". You will still be able to negotiate incidentals like PTO, signing bonus, etc. When recruiters from e.g. Japan or some European countries reach out to me it's easy for me to dismiss them out of hand since their comp is stated up front. This is also more fair to demographics which don't like to negotiate, and women in particular.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#98

Post by JoshTriplett »

jimnotgym wrote: post #82
JoshTriplett wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's only illegal if they can prove that you discriminated based on their age. If at any time during the interview the employer asks the candidate's age (or any other protected information), the candidate will have a much easier time making a case for that.

On the other hand candidates in the UK (at least) are in the habit of putting dates on their CV for the major events in their life, like school leaving and Uni graduation...so age is kinda obvious. It is of course OK to seek candidates that are 'early in their careers', as long as you wouldn't turn away an inexperienced older person (and I have employed career changers who were evidently much older than other candida…

> On the other hand candidates in the UK (at least) are in the habit of putting dates on their CV for the major events in their life, like school leaving and Uni graduation...so age is kinda obvious.

True, at least in the most common case. A name on a CV can also suggest nationality and gender, and multiple studies have shown that the name on a CV alone can significantly change the response to an otherwise identical CV.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#99

Post by logicallee »

prostoalex wrote: post #85
logicallee wrote: post #72

[Edit: if a potential employer asked my previous salary] I would have zero qualms (zero) saying any number I wanted. If I was asked for paystubs I would say I'll get them later and add that the number may not have been exact, it could be off substantially I want to be upfront about that. If I have to put a number in a form and sign that I swear it is accurate, I would put an asterisk and explain that it is indicative…

> and add that the number may not have been exact, it could be off substantially Beyond pure monetary compensation, there are various non-monetary parameters - quality of health plan, quality and employee cost of dental plan, parental leave policy, 401(k) matching, mobile phone or Internet reimbursement, employer stock purchase plan - that any random number feels like a good ballpark estimate. E.g. how does one value…

I'm not sure if you got my meaning - I added the part you quote at the top of your comment as a "CYA" (cover your ass.) For example say someone is a 22 year old very expert programmer with a degree from a top school who for some reason is only making $35k. I would advise them to have zero qualms to lie and say they are making $75K (with the cya line that this number could be off substantially) if they were interviewing for a job paying $80k. Because they are being paid to do a job, not to be of a certain age or have a certain salary history. That's my opinion anyway.

If what you've given is further cya points - then by all means, use them.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#100

Post by jimmywanger »

There are two things that spring out instantly.

First, the motivation is to close gender pay inequality. Assuming such a thing exists (women get paid less for the same job), where is the evidence that this policy would reduce the supposed gap?

Second, they're prohibiting you from asking, not prohibiting employers from not choosing you for failing to answer with the truth.

It's part of negotiation. Would it be legal to ask "what's the least amount of money we can give you for you to accept the job?" (Which, btw, is the question they're indirectly asking you.)

Why are they trying to outlaw negotiation skills for a somewhat unproven premise and an unclear cause and effect relationship?

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