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Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

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Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#41
post #24
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are all employers corporations? And even as such, this is just outlawing information. I do not understand how so many on the left support such a measure. It's a question -- outlawing questions, especially between private parties in a consensual relationship (applicant and employer), is backwards. You can choose not to answer it; you can lie; you can choose not to work for employers that ask the question in the first…

Probably because there is a very large disparity in power and information. A few points: 1. You will always need the job more than Comcast will need you (unless you're unusually skilled, most workers aren't) 2. Comcast knows how much the pay every one of their employees, you the job seeker do not. 3. Comcast is only asking so they can figure out the lowest pay you'll accept. You have no way to figure out how high the…

> You will always need the job more than Comcast will need you

Where is the evidence for this? This is by no means an obvious claim. No one in the world needs "the job," even though most people need "a job." Do companies exist that are more moral/popular/friendly than others? Of course. And some of them are successful in part because people want them to succeed due to their aforementioned characteristics. That is freedom. There is a market for moral hiring practices, just like every other kind of morality.

> Comcast knows how much the pay every one of their employees, you the job seeker do not.

Actually, this is completely false. You have a pretty good understanding of what they pay employees in similar positions (if you've ever heard of Glassdoor), whereas they have very little understanding what you were making in a past life, especially if you worked at lesser known companies.

> Comcast is only asking so they can figure out the lowest pay you'll accept. You have no way to figure out how high they are willing to go, so you start out at a disadvantage.

Of course, their goal is to get a deal, just like your goal is to get a big sale. Sounds like a free market at work. What's the problem?

> Limiting a company's ability to ask intrusive questions in no way impinges on individual liberty, you are not a company, and a company is not a person.

What if I am a consultant, sole proprietor, prime contractor, etc.? As I already mentioned, not all employers are corporations. It DOES infringe on freedom. And it's not like there is this nebulous, evil entity named Comcast that wants to ask the question -- it's the people in the business making business decisions, who decide to ask the question to better inform their offers (whether this is a poor decision is subjective, both morally and otherwise).

> If you choose to not answer, they likely will not hire you

Sounds speculative -- I need data for such a broad generalization.

> if you lie and they find out, they will likely fire you.

Sounds really speculative -- would you think it's common to go back in time and try to find old salaries? I appreciate that you're putting "likely," but I would like to see some evidence that it is indeed likely (defined as more than 50%).

> If they lie the you about the pay range and you accept, you have no recourse but to quit if you catch them in that lie, which brings us back to point #1.

I think it's pretty universal that you know your compensation in the contract before you accept the job -- it's just as much your fault if you take a job for the salary that they say you might see in a future promotion.

As you can see, I'm extremely unconvinced by any of your arguments here. I'm open to seeing another side of this if you have more compelling arguments, but I hope you can see that the world has not fallen apart thus far without this regulation in place, and I don't think there is any benefit to outweigh the losses/loss of freedom. If you can somehow show that employers are infringing on peoples' freedoms by asking this question more than the freedoms of the employers would be impacted by not being allowed to ask certain questions, then that would be compelling. But I don't see it.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#43
Massachusetts did this last summer. Seems like a strange trend. Not necessarily bad (though it makes things harder for me as a hiring manager) but I wonder what group is pushing for this. Laws don't tend to get passed unless they're backed by special interests.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#44
post #15
post #7

An important detail: Comcast, backed by the local Chamber of Commerce, has threatened to sue the city over this law. On what basis? The corporation's Constitutional First Amendment free speech right to ask the question: http://www.investopedia.com/news/comcast-threatens-sue-city-... Are these the same free speech rights the Supreme Court recently bestowed on the corporations? I remember that at the time legal analyst…

Are all employers corporations? And even as such, this is just outlawing information. I do not understand how so many on the left support such a measure. It's a question -- outlawing questions, especially between private parties in a consensual relationship (applicant and employer), is backwards. You can choose not to answer it; you can lie; you can choose not to work for employers that ask the question in the first…

sure, i agree, so in the spirit of free exchange of information, let's require employers to list their salary range in all job listings, and let's require employers to give salary statistics to prospective employees before salary negotiations. if an employer doesn't want to disclose that information, then they are free to not hire anyone.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#45
post #19

Most innovation and progress now is at the city level (I'm not the first to say it). Name the last thing government achieved at a national level in the U.S. - there's health care, but that's now looking shaky. The priority of one major party in the U.S. is to shut down government as much as possible; that party can block progress everywhere but in cities, where they have no power for now. However, they are trying to…

If cities and municipalities are our hope for good governance we're are all pretty screwed. Cities across the country basically bankrupt and state and local governance is rife with corruption.

I believe state and local governments are unable to run a deficit. If the federal government had to play by the same rules it would be bankrupt as well.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#46
post #21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are all employers corporations? And even as such, this is just outlawing information. I do not understand how so many on the left support such a measure. It's a question -- outlawing questions, especially between private parties in a consensual relationship (applicant and employer), is backwards. You can choose not to answer it; you can lie; you can choose not to work for employers that ask the question in the first…

> You can choose not to answer it; you can lie; you can choose not to work for employers that ask the question in the first place, especially if they coerce you into providing records. >> you can choose not to work for employers that ask the question in the first place >>> you can choose not to work And here is the disconnect. Not everyone has the ability to simply "choose not to work...". Hence, laws. Your reasoning…

The (typically salaried) people that get to negotiate their pay that this stuff affects do have those choices.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#47
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are all employers corporations? And even as such, this is just outlawing information. I do not understand how so many on the left support such a measure. It's a question -- outlawing questions, especially between private parties in a consensual relationship (applicant and employer), is backwards. You can choose not to answer it; you can lie; you can choose not to work for employers that ask the question in the first…

The principles you raise require a relationship where parties have relatively equal power. For example, if the CEO of a Fortune 500 company pushes a janitor for sex, you can say the janitor has the "free choice" to deny the CEO, but that's not really the case. If a high-profile coach tells one of their team members to do something inappropriate, the college kid has the 'free choice' to say no, but not really. This ru…

[deleted]

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#48
post #3

A society truly run by the people, ala individuals, would have banned this long ago. Just think about it: for an average person, what benefit do they receive by allowing employers to ask about past or current salary information? None. Wouldn't be surprised if there have been measures to ban this that were ultimately struck down by business people. The less information that's shared with employers, the more employers…

> A society truly run by the people, ala individuals, would have banned this I'm libertarian-leaning, and statements like these bother me deeply. If I'm an employer, why ban me from asking some question to a prospective employee? It's a restriction on the employer's freedom. The job applicant has a right to decline to answer my question (and I have a right to decline to offer a job). Regulating what questions I can a…

Perhaps this can be countered by more free speech? Perhaps we should allow union representatives to visit workplaces and speak to employees in the parking lot without employer interference?

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#49

Massachusetts did this last summer. Seems like a strange trend. Not necessarily bad (though it makes things harder for me as a hiring manager) but I wonder what group is pushing for this. Laws don't tend to get passed unless they're backed by special interests.

How does such a law makes things harder for you as a hiring manger?

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#50
post #21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are all employers corporations? And even as such, this is just outlawing information. I do not understand how so many on the left support such a measure. It's a question -- outlawing questions, especially between private parties in a consensual relationship (applicant and employer), is backwards. You can choose not to answer it; you can lie; you can choose not to work for employers that ask the question in the first…

> You can choose not to answer it; you can lie; you can choose not to work for employers that ask the question in the first place, especially if they coerce you into providing records. >> you can choose not to work for employers that ask the question in the first place >>> you can choose not to work And here is the disconnect. Not everyone has the ability to simply "choose not to work...". Hence, laws. Your reasoning…

Not that I agree with the logical leaps here, but you skipped a step:

> you can choose not to work for employers

You don't have to work for any particular employer, and you also don't have to work for any employer at all. You can consult, contract, start a company, etc. But of course this is not necessary even if you're basing your entire career around avoiding that question, because it's not like every single employer asks it.

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