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The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf]

greenlab.psych.wisc.edu

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Re: The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf]

#31

Post by jonmb »

rublev wrote: post #27
Agentlien wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction. And if that's your relationship to games, then not playing them does sound like a very reasonable choice. On the other end of the spectrum, I myself see video games as my big passion and it's a large part of what I do to unwind and have fun. I would estimate that I typically play 10-20 hour…

>If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction. The stress is in the losing.

Agreed, and this tends to be mostly an aspect of competitive multiplayer gaming. As my spare time for video gaming has diminished, I've been sticking to cooperative online games where all players are on the same team (like Diablo 3), or just playing offline.

Replaying the classics is also fun. Will Super Mario Bros 3 ever cease to be enjoyable? Doesn't seem so.

Re: The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf]

#32

Post by notheguyouthink »

rublev wrote: post #27
Agentlien wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction. And if that's your relationship to games, then not playing them does sound like a very reasonable choice. On the other end of the spectrum, I myself see video games as my big passion and it's a large part of what I do to unwind and have fun. I would estimate that I typically play 10-20 hour…

>If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction. The stress is in the losing.

Hell, it's in the winning too. MOBAs are a great example of a game i hate to win or lose, but (not currently) play purely for the rush, teamfights, depth in meta, etc.

No game has made me hate winning more than DoTA. It's quite astounding, really. I can fully not-enjoy a match and turn right around and want to play another to hopefully get a good match. Not one i win, specifically, but one that is enjoyable, even if a loss - which entirely depends on the players.

I quit playing DoTA (currently) not because of the feelings, but because of the time investment. Long games mean long iteration cycles on my above "just one more game, i want a good game". At 40m chunks, suddenly you're entire night was gone and all i wanted was one game that didn't make me feel like hell.

Yes, this is all very addiction sounding, and it's likely not wrong.

Re: The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf]

#33

Post by TulliusCicero »

6stringmerc wrote: post #21
TulliusCicero wrote: post #17

It's funny, because we'll talk all day long about how (physical) play is so important to a child's cognitive development, never considering that maybe mentally-focused play is also beneficial. The very fact that video games are so compelling/addictive has given them the reputation of being nonproductive, so we tend to assume that they must give little or no benefit to the individual player.

Games are quite passive in the grand scheme of things and do little to actually challenge cognition. Compared to other basic toys / learning devices, video games don't have compelling research because I don't think it'll work out. There's no 3 dimensional space to work through (Legos), no emotional play (dolls, action figures), visual imagination time (crayons, Play Doh)...on and on and on with better examples that d…

> Games are quite passive in the grand scheme of things and do little to actually challenge cognition.

1. Sure they do, although I admit it depends on the game. I'd say video games are more mentally challenging than school, most of the time. I remember most of grade school being kind of a walkover, whereas the games I played were much more consistently challenging, especially when against other people.

2. If what you say is true, why does the research show cognitive improvements from some types of games?

> Compared to other basic toys / learning devices, video games don't have compelling research

What research they do have has shown improvements, though (did you not even read the pdf this thread is based on?). You're not even attempting to refute this, instead you're just ignoring it. Why?

> There's no 3 dimensional space to work through (Legos), no emotional play (dolls, action figures), visual imagination time (crayons, Play Doh)...on and on and on with better examples that don't need batteries and are more stimulating than being a button mashing monkey.

It sounds like you're just not very experienced with video games. I'd take competitive Starcraft as a beneficial cognitive toy over Legos any day of the week.

Re: The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf]

#34

Post by Agentlien »

louprado wrote: post #25
Agentlien wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction. And if that's your relationship to games, then not playing them does sound like a very reasonable choice. On the other end of the spectrum, I myself see video games as my big passion and it's a large part of what I do to unwind and have fun. I would estimate that I typically play 10-20 hour…

I don't doubt your integrity and passion, but I couldn't resist mentioning that your comment parallels that of people who work in other industries that produce addictive products. Specifically I was reminded by a quote of an owner of a mid-size tobacco farm. For the record, I also did not doubt the farmer's integrity and passion. It's as if a non-addictive personality, or complete abstinence of the industry's product…

I upvoted your comment because I find it genuinely interesting and I do see where you come from, though I didn't see that kind of aspect to it myself when writing my comment. I simply see myself as a gamer who happens to be lucky enough to get to work with something I love.

The addictive nature of games and the tendency of games to be designed to deliberately get you hooked is a very common topic of conversation at work. Especially since several of my coworkers have a background in the development of casino games. I find the ethical aspects of it fascinating and a rather intellectually challenging topic.

When playing games I don't want to feel like I'm consuming a drug engineered solely to be addictive and I certainly don't want to see myself as a developer of such. On the other hand, I want games to feel engaging and entice me to keep playing and come back for more. As such, addictive is often used as a positively loaded word when talking about games. I feel that I have a good sense of what aspects of a game make up the good kind of addictive and what contributes to the bad kind, but I can't quite formulate a general rule to describe it.

The closest I can come is this:

- "Good addiction" is when a game rewards you for actual accomplishments and keeps you coming back because you enjoy playing it.

- "Bad addiction" is when a game rewards you for simply spending time with it and keeps you coming back simply because you feel quitting would mean missing out on more random rewards.

I have at times found myself stuck in one of those bad reward loops, but it usually only takes me a short while to identify it as such. When I do, I quit playing that game. Yes, video game addiction is a serious problem and I do agree that there are very unethical practices going on in parts of the video game industry. But I also feel that this isn't necessarily part of what makes a video game. I'm guessing that's also an argument similar to what a tobacco farmer would say.

Re: The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf]

#35

Post by TulliusCicero »

6stringmerc wrote: post #21
TulliusCicero wrote: post #17

It's funny, because we'll talk all day long about how (physical) play is so important to a child's cognitive development, never considering that maybe mentally-focused play is also beneficial. The very fact that video games are so compelling/addictive has given them the reputation of being nonproductive, so we tend to assume that they must give little or no benefit to the individual player.

Games are quite passive in the grand scheme of things and do little to actually challenge cognition. Compared to other basic toys / learning devices, video games don't have compelling research because I don't think it'll work out. There's no 3 dimensional space to work through (Legos), no emotional play (dolls, action figures), visual imagination time (crayons, Play Doh)...on and on and on with better examples that d…

Here's a question for you: how many more traditional toys involve strategy? Board games do, obviously, they're also games. But other toys rarely do, and that's one thing video games have in spades. Even visceral, run-and-gun action games usually involve a fair bit of strategizing, even if it's just "what's the optimal path to kill these zombies?"

Heck, what parts of school teach any kind of strategic thinking? I struggle to think of anything part of a standard curriculum.

Re: The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf]

#36

Post by falcolas »

WA wrote: post #2

Having only read the abstract and key points: The question is if video games have a better positive impact on cognitive abilities than other things you could do in the meantime that may also improve other abilities as well. I write this because I quit video games almost entirely a year ago. I played probably 500-700 hours of video games in 2015. I played occasionally simple games on my phone in 2016. The major downsi…

It does raise the question: what are you doing in the remaining 380-580 hours a year?

If the answer is TV (or similar), has anything really changed?

> I want to be good and that costs time.

This applies to everything in life.

> I can't play video games "for fun".

Probably not a bad choice to change your form of entertainment, then.

Re: The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf]

#37

Post by stcredzero »

Agentlien wrote: post #10
WA wrote: post #2

Having only read the abstract and key points: The question is if video games have a better positive impact on cognitive abilities than other things you could do in the meantime that may also improve other abilities as well. I write this because I quit video games almost entirely a year ago. I played probably 500-700 hours of video games in 2015. I played occasionally simple games on my phone in 2016. The major downsi…

If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction. And if that's your relationship to games, then not playing them does sound like a very reasonable choice. On the other end of the spectrum, I myself see video games as my big passion and it's a large part of what I do to unwind and have fun. I would estimate that I typically play 10-20 hour…

If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction.

The problem is, that variable schedule of reward and social validation are both very potent means of altering human behavior which can be used to extract money from them. How often do people who play games report, "I don't know why I'm doing this. It's not even fun anymore." The Extra Credits YouTube channel talks about this as well. There is a temptation that must be resisted, where variable schedule of reward addiction can be used to replace fun.

What is the record of companies resisting the temptation to do something unregulated, that they can make money at? Heck, I don't even know if we have a good metric for the degree of use of variable schedule of reward.

Re: The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf]

#38

Post by url00 »

notheguyouthink wrote: post #32
rublev wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction. The stress is in the losing.

Hell, it's in the winning too. MOBAs are a great example of a game i hate to win or lose, but (not currently) play purely for the rush, teamfights, depth in meta, etc. No game has made me hate winning more than DoTA. It's quite astounding, really. I can fully not-enjoy a match and turn right around and want to play another to hopefully get a good match. Not one i win, specifically, but one that is enjoyable, even if…

Have you looked at Battlerite before? I was in the same place as you, except with League of Legends. Loved playing teamfights, tolerated a 15 minute lane phase. But with queue times getting beyond 5 minutes and dodges becoming more common a game could take upwards of an hour from start to finish.

Battlerite fixes these issues (and adds a few of course), but the biggest win for me is that the iteration cycle is extremely short - games only last at max 15 minutes. Queue times are fast with no pick/ban phase. You just get in game and get fighting.

As someone who was finding traditional MOBAs hard to find time for, I recommend at least looking at it. The percentage of good games in my experience is much higher. One final note though: I would stay away from the subreddit. It makes r/leagueoflegends look good.

Re: The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf]

#39

Post by pjc50 »

stcredzero wrote: post #37
Agentlien wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction. And if that's your relationship to games, then not playing them does sound like a very reasonable choice. On the other end of the spectrum, I myself see video games as my big passion and it's a large part of what I do to unwind and have fun. I would estimate that I typically play 10-20 hour…

If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction. The problem is, that variable schedule of reward and social validation are both very potent means of altering human behavior which can be used to extract money from them. How often do people who play games report, "I don't know why I'm doing this. It's not even fun anymore." The Extra Credi…

This is an important thing, that "games" covers a huge range of things with different levels of "addiction", pricing, playable length, thematic complexity, social relevance, etc. Even more so than saying "TV" or "film".

Re: The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf]

#40

Post by redsummer »

WA wrote: post #2

Having only read the abstract and key points: The question is if video games have a better positive impact on cognitive abilities than other things you could do in the meantime that may also improve other abilities as well. I write this because I quit video games almost entirely a year ago. I played probably 500-700 hours of video games in 2015. I played occasionally simple games on my phone in 2016. The major downsi…

Are there ANY games which improve real-life skills? Games are often said to improve you in some way, to up-skill you, but I'm not sure I've ever seen evidence.
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