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Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0

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Re: Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0

#61

Post by bildung »

coldtea wrote: post #31
Flimm wrote: post #5

The next release, Django 1.11, will be a long-term support release, and the one after that, Django 2.0, will no longer support Python 2. https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2015/jun/25/roadmap/ I've grow to highly respect the Django project for its good documentation, its healthy consideration for backwards compatibility, security, steady improvements and all round goodness.

> its healthy consideration for backwards compatibility Like screwing the huge majority of users with Python 2.x Django projects and having them update or be left behind?

It was pretty clear for multiple years that Django would eventually migrate to python3 only. Even regarding library support, I've started going python3-only with my Django projects at the beginning of 2015 and had practically zero problems, as only some esoteric packages were not supporting python3 (and then I wouldn't have used them for client projects anyway, because esoteric).

I still have one customer with a Django/python2 code base. When migrating to Django 1.11 in 2017, that project gets security updates until at least 2020. Plenty of time to gradually transition to py3. I honestly don't see the problem.

Re: Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0

#62

Post by coldtea »

gtaylor wrote: post #45
coldtea wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> its healthy consideration for backwards compatibility Like screwing the huge majority of users with Python 2.x Django projects and having them update or be left behind?

It's going to be more and more of a burden for the developers to maintain compatibility with a 7-year old version of Python. I think this is smart and will help them focus on the road forward. Django 1.11 is an LTS release, so legacy stuff can stick with it and be just fine.

>It's going to be more and more of a burden for the developers to maintain compatibility with a 7-year old version of Python.

That's the version of Python that most of their users actually use -- with no major plans of mass updating.

Re: Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0

#63

Post by ankitml »

Galanwe wrote: post #21
Flimm wrote: post #5

The next release, Django 1.11, will be a long-term support release, and the one after that, Django 2.0, will no longer support Python 2. https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2015/jun/25/roadmap/ I've grow to highly respect the Django project for its good documentation, its healthy consideration for backwards compatibility, security, steady improvements and all round goodness.

Interestingly, I have the exact opposite view on Django. I hate their API and overall architecture, which I find to be the result of glueing features on top of features for many years. The internal code also is just like that: looks like every single method is riddled with out-of-band conditionals, which is the result of a community that prefers to hack things to work, instead of rethinking/refactoring.

Not sure why you hate it? It is one thing to say Django is bad at x and then specify x and other thing is to say I hate Django because it its internals are shit and shoot your points like a machine gun. The second approach is not going to be helpful to anyone.

Re: Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0

#64

Post by samwillis »

crdoconnor wrote: post #54
samwillis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, I think Django dropping support for 2 will actually push more open source projects to do the same. This will create the momentum and incentive necessary to nudge people over the edge and upgrade. There is an awful lot of hyperbole around the difficulty of upgrading from python 2 to 3, however with the latest changes in 2.7 and 3.6 the gap isn't as big as you expect. I converted our (admittedly not massive…

>There is an awful lot of hyperbole around the difficulty of upgrading from python 2 to 3 +1. IMO this is the 2nd most overblown python issue next to the GIL. It's also not actually that difficult to maintain code that works on both. Upgrading Django OTOH has caused me quite a bit more pain over the years.

Very true, upgrading from 2 to 3 was an easer change than a couple of the last Django upgrades - and we are doing those every 9 months...

Re: Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0

#65

Post by creshal »

danpalmer wrote: post #40
Galanwe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, I have the exact opposite view on Django. I hate their API and overall architecture, which I find to be the result of glueing features on top of features for many years. The internal code also is just like that: looks like every single method is riddled with out-of-band conditionals, which is the result of a community that prefers to hack things to work, instead of rethinking/refactoring.

I'd prefer to hold judgement on the internals of Django, however as a developer using the API, I also think it's a pleasure to use. There is a very high level of consistency, similar patterns used throughout, and the architecture results in a project structure that I can explain to a new developer who has never used Django before in minutes. I find few frameworks really scale in terms of structure and consistency, an…

Minutes is a bit of an understatement, but given the amount of complexity involved, the API is acceptably consistent.

Re: Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0

#66

Post by raverbashing »

Galanwe wrote: post #21
Flimm wrote: post #5

The next release, Django 1.11, will be a long-term support release, and the one after that, Django 2.0, will no longer support Python 2. https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2015/jun/25/roadmap/ I've grow to highly respect the Django project for its good documentation, its healthy consideration for backwards compatibility, security, steady improvements and all round goodness.

Interestingly, I have the exact opposite view on Django. I hate their API and overall architecture, which I find to be the result of glueing features on top of features for many years. The internal code also is just like that: looks like every single method is riddled with out-of-band conditionals, which is the result of a community that prefers to hack things to work, instead of rethinking/refactoring.

> instead of rethinking/refactoring.

And breaking backwards compatibility

Django is not RoR. Their users rely on being able to upgrade seamlessly.

The overall Api makes sense, there are some rough corners (yes Sites, I'm talking about you) the docs are ok once you get the hang of them

Re: Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0

#67

Post by gtaylor »

vegabook wrote: post #39
gtaylor wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am also almost 100% certain that if scientific programmers leave Python, the language will stall, and the current 3.x pushers are dangerously looking a gift horse in the mouth. This sounds like such similar sour grapes to the systemd escapades. Huge initial outroar as certain things happened, followed by a gradual diminishing, then [mostly] acceptance. This is what is happening with Python 3 and a smaller, doom-a…

Except that personally I see the benefit of Systemd every time I boot my linux computer. It just works, fast, and clean. I don't partake in the philosophical arguments. I just want it to work. Py3 by contrast, simply throws cruft curveballs at me. No tangible benefit. This is not a systemd-style issue. And yes Python will likely continue massively to be used in the sciences, 3 bears like me notwithstanding, so it wou…

> core base of users and please could they focus on them instead of the web people who are much more fickle and moving already.

Ahhh, I see what's going on now. You may be vastly underestimating the size of variety of the Python userbase. This is one of the absolute most popular languages on the planet. Your science subset is but one of many. And it's not even the biggest if we're talking sheer user counts.

Python must be steered for the good of the majority of the userbase. Not just for vegabook. The fact that you described them as "useless" to me just speaks to someone being impatient and dismissive of a ton of excellent work by the contributors. These changes weren't made just for the hell of it. Particularly the Unicode example that you gave above.

If you want help understanding the rationale behind some of these changes, feel free to ask here. Someone with more familiarity will chime in and help clear up the confusion or angst.

Re: Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0

#68

Post by agildehaus »

coldtea wrote: post #59
BHSPitMonkey wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't your Python 2 services talk to your Python 3 web app?

Why should I maintain code, servers and libs in 2 versions of a backend programming language?

Because one is essentially EOL?

Re: Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0

#69

Post by raverbashing »

coldtea wrote: post #31
Flimm wrote: post #5

The next release, Django 1.11, will be a long-term support release, and the one after that, Django 2.0, will no longer support Python 2. https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2015/jun/25/roadmap/ I've grow to highly respect the Django project for its good documentation, its healthy consideration for backwards compatibility, security, steady improvements and all round goodness.

> its healthy consideration for backwards compatibility Like screwing the huge majority of users with Python 2.x Django projects and having them update or be left behind?

Django and most libraries were already working seamlessly 2 years ago

Python 2.7 will EOL in 2020. But I guess even then some luddites will complain how they will have been left hanging

Re: Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0

#70

Post by Radim »

gtaylor wrote: post #28
vegabook wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python 3 is a seriously misguided project. It's got tons of newer-to-Python fans (your HN downvoter demographic), and tons of silent-majority "real-world" users especially in scientific programming who just don't like it. I moved to 3.4 a year ago and, as a data scientist, I have to say I find nothing in 3 to be better than 2, other than the extremely marginal default float arithmetic. I may be wrong for web developm…

I'm not seeing signs of these kinds of widespread issues out in the wild. The popularity of the language has continued to increase, and numerous warts and flaws were wiped out in Python 3. That Unicode "cruft" is especially appreciated by the rest of the world that exists outside of the US. Python 2's approach to bytes and encoding is naive and horrible for 2017.

I'll bite.

I'm outside of the US and Python 2 has worked wonderfully for ages. Its unicode support is good. You work with strings as unicode, then at I/O boundaries (and exceptions) you convert to bytes. What specifically do you find "naive and horrible" about its bytes and encodings?

Python 3 can use less memory for unicode strings (a cool optimization introduced in py3.3, IIRC), and it did away with the "narrow/wide build" distinction (same release). That's about the only every-day advantage I can think of. But I suspect that's too technical, or do you mean that?

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