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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

721–730 of 797 posts

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#721
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no record of any individual being physically harmed, but the leaked diplomatic cables were highly embarrassing, hurt the interests of the US, and were completely unjustified. They weren't exposing malfeasance or war crimes. They should not have been released. Manning did it wrong, Snowden did it right.

Manning intended to remain anonymous. Snowden always intended to take personal public responsibility for his whistleblowing. They did it different, different tools for different purposes. Comparing them like for like is not a good comparison.

Snowden took personal responsibility for a single reason-- so the news would talk about the leaks, rather than the effort to find the leaker. He didn't want the conversation to be about Edward Snowden. He was largely successful.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly could've you made out these figures as civilians and not enemy combatants? From POV of the camera, you already have seen one of them with an RPG, and the opposing force doesn't really use uniforms either. Don't fall for a logical fallacy, and try to view the situatiom from the lens of the information that they actually had, not the hindsight.

International law and the rules of engagement requires you to positively identify enemy combatant as well as not engage enemy combatant that are incapacitated. There's nothing in the video indicating that they person getting picked up by the van or that the people picking him up has weapons. (from the transcript [0]) 05:30 There's one guy moving down there but he's uh, he's wounded. ... 06:01 He's getting up. 06:02 M…

Exactly right. These really were war crimes, and Chelsea did have a moral imperative to leak them.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden released a large volume of information to well qualified journalists who very carefully combed through the data to find the things most relevant and important for the American public to know. Information that was legitimately classified and had no whistleblowing value simply wasn't released. Manning released a large volume of information to the public en masse with no regard to it's whistleblowing value. Some…

It's morally-consent now to offer Snowden an immunity deal in exchange for inventorying what was taken. Without meaningful whistleblower protections, the deep state remains deeply corrupted.

I completely agree, but Snowden won't get a pardon for one simple reason-- it would look weak to do so.

Commuting Manning's sentence is magnaminous. She endured 7 years of torture in solitary confinement, tried to suicide several times, and plead guilty in a court of law.

Snowden GOT AWAY. And he went to Russia, where Putin granted asylum as a giant "screw you" to the US.

So yes-- we do have a moral imperative to pardon Snowden, just as much as Manning. But we won't do it.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Little unethical behavior was actually leaked, though. The killing of the Reuters journalists probably should've been leaked since there was a sort of cover-up (government refused to give Reuters the video or concrete details), so I'll give her that. But the rest was basically just normal communications. I think she's served more than enough jail time, but this didn't really seem like a conscience-driven whistleblowi…

Could you please elaborate on this? I recently had dinner with a friend in intelligence, who was trying to convince me that Snowden was in bed with Russia from the get-go, and that the 90% of the leak had nothing to do with privacy concerns. I took his opinions with a grain of salt given his background, but also couldn't refute due to being relatively unfamiliar with the Snowden saga.

That is the consensus of US intelligence, yeah, but they have no actual proof. Basically it's his word against their hypothesis.

Do you really believe Snowden was a double-agent, or that he was a conscientious whistle-blower? That's what it comes down to.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? You can't expect people to know that, this whole preferred pronoun issue is nonsense; you do not have a right to tell other people which words they should use.

You can't expect people to know that I shared the link, so that people who weren't aware of Chelsea's preferred pronouns, could learn which pronouns she preferred. this whole preferred pronoun issue is nonsense; you do not have a right to tell other people which words they should use. You're right to say that in general, I cannot control the words that people use, about me, or about others. But I do respect the choic…

> And I would question: why would someone use an alternative pronoun, knowing that the person would prefer an alternative?

The answer is quite simple, we don't always keep track of other people's preferences even when we've been told them.

> Why would anyone choose to knowingly attack and hurt someone, purely for sake of labeling them with a pronoun that the person has identified as inappropriate?

Again, just because you had a piece of information, doesn't mean it immediately comes forth in your mind at the necessary time. It's hard enough remembering the preferences of your friends, let alone public figures who you've never met. No one here likely personally knows Manning, to expect people to remember the preferences of public figures they don't know is expecting too much.

> When someone has identified their preferred pronouns, it is entirely appropriate to use those pronouns, and it is inappropriate - even abusive - to deliberately choose to use an incorrect pronoun.

No, it is not. You are placing an unjustified exception on another persons memory of your preferences, this is never appropriate.

> I do state "deliberately choose to use", because there will inevitably be people who mistakenly use an incorrect pronoun, for lack of knowledge, but people who are aware of the correct pronouns and deliberately choose an incorrect pronoun are conducting a bullying, abusive attack, and should be stopped.

This is a false dichotomy that presumes perfect memory; just because you've been told something doesn't mean you're deliberately ignoring that information when you later use the incorrect pronoun. Some people don't know, but knowing doesn't mean you deliberately intended insult when you still use it wrong. We all know lots of things that don't come to us in the necessary moments, brains aren't computers, they're fuzzy.

If your ability to cope depends on another persons choice of vocabulary, you're depending on the wrong things.

Anyone who claims to be offended by "they" is someone playing victim, they're looking for reasons to be insulted. They/them is always appropriate in all cases for all genders, it's how we avoid having to remember everyone's personal preferences.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see any criminal or even incorrecr decisions by US military in that video. Making decisions based on incomplete information, with certain risk of bad outcomes abd collateral damage is a part of war. So to paraphrase "they did nothing wrong and even if they did it would have been okay". First, they clearly shot civilians trying to take other civilians to the hospital by essentially inventing weapons they did…

How exactly could've you made out these figures as civilians and not enemy combatants? From POV of the camera, you already have seen one of them with an RPG, and the opposing force doesn't really use uniforms either. Don't fall for a logical fallacy, and try to view the situatiom from the lens of the information that they actually had, not the hindsight.

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, not necessarily earned as the other poster points out but let's roll with it. You have successfully defended between two and eleven civilian deaths that were not hidden before the leaks. That leaves you merely with the task of explaining the around twelve thousand that were hidden prior to the leaks.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#727
post #696
post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the Manning pardon, I don't think Snowden deserves a pardon. Manning's motives and understanding of what she was doing is worlds different than Snowden's. Snowden sought a position to access more information for his leaks and he leaked information on valid espionage programs along side the unconstitutional ones. Let him live out his days in Russia, he paid for it with intelligence.

So you don't think Snowden has done great enough good for US citizens for anybody to consider a pardon for him?

Snowden should be pardoned for his work revealing domestic wiretapping program, the other programs he leaked he should do his time for.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is everyone here forgetting the millions given by foreign nations?? The outright collusion with media? The lack of sensitivity to LGBT rights? The fact that they never discussed how to actually solve the Nation's problems, only worked on crafting a message to the public, and having "public and private" policies? The family connections to Russia that everyone conveniently ignores lately? Or most chilling of all, the c…

What millions? The same collusion that had all media screaming about emails all the time? The default support for LGBT rights? What family connections to Russia?; were they in the same league as with Putin is doing with Trump? What codespeak are you talking about? You mean policies you don't personally like?

What millions? How about these:

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/8396

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/22030#efmABAADK...

What Russia family connections? How about these:

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/927 (see page 61 of the attachment)

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/1127

Why the concern if there's nothing to be concerned about? (https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/225, https://www.wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/370)

Regarding codespeak... it's starting to go mainstream. Google what Ben Swann's been up to.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The difference is that Manning released it to Assange and Snowden released it to more responsible journalists." Sort of. They're more responsible in the general sense but also foreign journalists receiving U.S.'s spying capabilities on foreign persons. The aiding and abetting concept is quite appropriate given they published all kinds of NSA attack strategies & subverted companies while the foreign attacks & compani…

This is wonderful FUD and misdirection. I will bookmark to use as a reference for when I want to careful discredit someone.

Your comment is simple trolling. Most nations in the Snowden leaks spy on each other with humans and hacking. Only a few had their tools leaked by Snowden. Others, with spy & surveillance programs still running. immediately used that as political and economic leverage. That leaks damaged one set of countries while giving others benefits is a fact.

The real question is whether there is a greater good to that damage justifying it. I think there was for the domestic leaks but not the foreign ones outside a few. Far as that few, the Belgacom attack is a good example where taking down allies' telecoms over bullshit could have consequences for America past the usual info collection the spies do. Americans should have a conversation about that kind of thing before those acting on our behalf do such acts.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is everyone here forgetting the millions given by foreign nations?? The outright collusion with media? The lack of sensitivity to LGBT rights? The fact that they never discussed how to actually solve the Nation's problems, only worked on crafting a message to the public, and having "public and private" policies? The family connections to Russia that everyone conveniently ignores lately? Or most chilling of all, the c…

> The family connections to Russia that everyone conveniently ignores lately? Remind me, which side of that election is now alleged to have been talking to FSB the whole time?

First off, arguing "against the other side" has nothing to do with these emails and is offtopic. We're referencing what was discovered in the leaked emails. And inside, you can find documented proof of the Uranium One thing and their concerns over it.
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