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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#701

Post by cushychicken »

chollida1 wrote: post #11

It's been said that one person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. > The files she copied also included about 250,000 diplomatic cables from American embassies around the world showing sensitive deals and conversations, dossiers detailing intelligence assessments of Guantánamo detainees held without trial, and a video of an American helicopter attack in Baghdad in two Reuters journalists were killed, among othe…

Malcolm Gladwell wrote a fascinating piece for the New Yorker last month that reviews the "etiquette" (for want of a better word here - maybe "procedure"?) of government leaks and whistleblowing.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/12/19/daniel-ellsberg...

Long story short - leaks are a desirable thing for the executive branch, but there is a "right" way to do them. Snowden and Manning did them the "wrong" way, and it's implied that that is one of the reasons they both had the book thrown at them.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#702

Post by criddell »

mhurron wrote: post #262
colechristensen wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden released a large volume of information to well qualified journalists who very carefully combed through the data to find the things most relevant and important for the American public to know. Information that was legitimately classified and had no whistleblowing value simply wasn't released. Manning released a large volume of information to the public en masse with no regard to it's whistleblowing value. Some…

> Some of that information was dangerous and harmful. So dangerous and harmful that it harmed no one.

Dangerous and harmful to the US government?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#703

Post by Fnoord »

macspoofing wrote: post #692
nfoz wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have "only the word" of everyone with security clearance that they are not leaking secrets to foreign agents. You don't have to be physically present in Russia to provide the Russians with intelligence. I don't know why it makes any sense to assume that Snowden is leaking any more than what he gave to the journalists. His entire mission was out of loyalty to the American public, he did not intend to end up in Russ…

>We have "only the word" of everyone with security clearance that they are not leaking secrets to foreign agents. Don't be dense. Those other agents didn't make off with 1.7 million highly classified files, flee to China and then arrange a defection to Russia with Russian officials. >I don't know why it makes any sense to assume that Snowden is leaking any more than what he gave to the journalists. Because he has sto…

He went to Hong Kong. In parent we can see you conveniently call that China, but that isn't the same.

Besides, we have his word, and two (or three) witnesses who saw him destroy the content of the SD card.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#704

Post by ptaipale »

messick wrote: post #523
ivraatiems wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is just a straight up "adversary" now? Infuriating. ...in this context, when were they not an adversary?

If the OP is in his/her mid 20's, then "during their entire lifetime". Not to be all "kids these days" about it, but millions of people read about the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Empire in their World History class, instead of living through it. Just last week on HN I saw a comment to the effect of "I trust China over the US when it comes to political protest". That's the kind of thing people say when Tian…

> If the OP is in his/her mid 20's, then "during their entire lifetime".

If they think so, then they haven't been following news too much. Russia has been invading its neighbouring countries (friendly to the USA) and organising unrest in some of them for a decade.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#705

Post by ptaipale »

randcraw wrote: post #662
ceejayoz wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but politically, "we dropped her sentence to seven years in jail" is more tenable than "we pardoned someone who never stood trial nor served a day in jail".

So don't pardon Snowden. Commute the charges against him. Like 97% of the cases that go to prosecution in this country, let him plea to a lesser crime and serve a 10 year sentence, minus time served in Russia.

Edit: Sorry, this was rubbish, I was thinking of Assange not Snowden. -- Note that charges (technically, a European Arrest Warrant in order to get him for questioning) against Snowden have not been made by the U.S. but by Sweden, for a suspected rape. So Obama definitely cannot commute them in any way.

There is no extradition request to the U.S., so when fighting an extradition to U.S., Snowden is beating a straw man.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#706

Post by dom0 »

shalmanese wrote: post #532
cdubzzz wrote: post #254

> “Mr. Snowden fled into the arms of an adversary, and has sought refuge in a country that most recently made a concerted effort to undermine confidence in our democracy.” What an amazingly loaded statement that is. Russia is just a straight up "adversary" now? Infuriating.

It's also worth noting that the only reason Snowden is currently in Russia is due to actions by the US State Department. Snowden left Hong Kong with a plane ticket to Cuba by way of Moscow. While he was on the plane, the US State Department revoked his passport, forcing him to miss his connecting flight. To make it seem like it was in any way a deliberate choice on his part is rewriting history.

I'm a bit unclear how this works. How can the US revoke the passport of a citizen? WTF?

http://news.passportoffices.us/help/passport-denial-and-revo...

     Passport was obtained illegally or fraudulently
     Non-Payment of child support
     Passport was misused or changed/altered
     Passport holder’s Certificate of Naturalization or Certificate of Citizenship is cancelled
     Certain drug trafficking convictions
     Those convicted of sex tourism
Uhm. Okay...

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#707

Post by LordKano »

i_don_t_know wrote: post #685
CoryG89 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. The courts found that a president can pardon a supposed crime before charges have even been filed, as well as any time before or after trial/conviction. This was the case with Ford's pardoning of Nixon, as well as Carter's pardoning of all those who avoided the draft during the Vietnam war.

That's not quite true either. According to https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/236/79/case.html "There are substantial differences between legislative immunity and a pardon; the latter carries an imputation of guilt and acceptance of a confession of it,[..]" You can only be pardoned if you have committed a crime. You have to either confess or admit your crime, or be tried, or at least be charged with a crime.…

Nixon confessed and admitted that he was guilty.

[Citation Needed]

I have never seen or even heard of any such confession from Nixon.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#708

Post by angry_octet »

nyolfen wrote: post #579
ivraatiems wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is just a straight up "adversary" now? Infuriating. ...in this context, when were they not an adversary?

there is no obvious reason for russia to be considered an "adversary" versus merely a competing regional power in the absence of the ideological conflict of the cold war

Tell that to the Ukranians, Georgians, Poles, Balts...

Russia may have an economy the size of Italy's, but geopolitically they are still the bear, a gangster state that seeks to disrupt all order so that they can bully on a one-to-one basis.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#709

Post by DarqWebster »

ptaipale wrote: post #705
randcraw wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So don't pardon Snowden. Commute the charges against him. Like 97% of the cases that go to prosecution in this country, let him plea to a lesser crime and serve a 10 year sentence, minus time served in Russia.

Edit: Sorry, this was rubbish, I was thinking of Assange not Snowden. -- Note that charges (technically, a European Arrest Warrant in order to get him for questioning) against Snowden have not been made by the U.S. but by Sweden, for a suspected rape. So Obama definitely cannot commute them in any way. There is no extradition request to the U.S., so when fighting an extradition to U.S., Snowden is beating a straw man…

That's Julian Assange, not Edward Snowden.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#710

Post by angry_octet »

adrienne wrote: post #351
akjainaj wrote: post #53

Why can the US president meddle with the sentence of a convict? Isn't that against the separation of powers? Not that I have anything against this guy Manning in particular, just asking why is this "tolerable" in a democracy. Isn't it a risk, that the president can pardon whoever he wants?

Manning is a woman, not a guy. It is fucking disgusting how many people here want to misgender her.

I would like to think that in ten years the overwhelming weight of opinion will be respectful of gender identity. At the moment that definitely isn't the case.

The consistent use of quotes around pronouns, as in "'she'", and use of 'they', as if there is confusion, is a subtle but deliberate way to indicate that the author thinks gender identity is all a bit fake. Its puerile behaviour from people who should know better.

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