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RethinkDB Postmortem

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Re: RethinkDB Postmortem

#51
What was the actual go to market strategy? Selling to enterprises? They have the money to spend but it seems like there was never an enterprise version of the software itself with features that are paid only. This is the high-margin sales that database companies build on, and then perhaps offer cloud and managed service to capture more spend. Support plans can also be great revenue, although they're not a sales driver but rather just required for big companies and likely break even for smaller ones.

That being said, it's an interesting database and I'm still looking for a solid distributed OLTP document-database with SQL/joins and multi-cluster replication... maybe someone else will try again.

Re: RethinkDB Postmortem

#52

Hey all, author here. FYI, the post is still in its unpublished state. It's basically right, but I've been meaning to edit it for tone and rewrite the market failure section for clarity. Didn't get the chance to do that before it made it on HN, so keep in mind that you're reading a (late) draft.

Kudos on a magnificent post, and of course commiserations.

One thing resonated strongly with me. When we started out many years ago someone said to me that the worst market you could go after was to target developers. Case in point - every developer who's ever put up a web site has built or thought about building a CMS. There must be thousands upon thousands of them, virtually all with a price of $0. Who would want to sell a CMS product?

We heeded that advice and I often reflect on it during the sales process when we have the "lets just run your offering past the IT team" meeting. So often, the line of questioning from the smartypants dudes in the room is all about tripping us up, finding our weak spot (I'm a techy so I get it - I think like this myself).

The best you can normally come out of that meeting with is grudging acceptance from IT that a SaaS solution should be OK, given that the business is in a rush and all, and given that IT has other priorities. (To be fair its much less like this these days, but a few years ago this was the norm).

By contrast, showing your product to a business person is a breath of fresh air. They don't want to build it themselves, they don't really care what's under the bonnet, they just want good, quick solutions to their actual problems, so they can go home at night and sit down to Netflix. HR people (our target market) are even nicer.

What's more those business people want to pay for your solution. A quick way to kill the deal is to joyously tell them "its free!". They need to understand how you get your buck at the end of the day. They'll never buy until they understand that. And the best (because its the simplest) answer is "we've got the best product, so we charge good money for it".

Re: RethinkDB Postmortem

#53
post #45

Hey all, author here. FYI, the post is still in its unpublished state. It's basically right, but I've been meaning to edit it for tone and rewrite the market failure section for clarity. Didn't get the chance to do that before it made it on HN, so keep in mind that you're reading a (late) draft.

First, thanks for your candor in this. If you're open to edits, the $200k revenue/employee rule of thumb really doesn't make a lot of sense when you're comparing your three alternate business models (Hosted Rethink, DBaaS Rethink and "Hey, maybe PaaS on top of Rethink?"). Like you, I thought it would be way too hard to run a service (my own company was encouraged to do so, and we shied away for it for the same reason…

> If you're open to edits, the $200k revenue/employee rule of thumb really doesn't make a lot of sense when you're comparing your three alternate business models

Sure, but for many venture funded companies and even large enterprises top-line is the top metric you're focused on. If you're in a growth industry it's about top line revenue, capturing market share, and cost of underlying bits will eventually come down.

> turns out to just not be true in practice. People pay us (Cloud SQL) and AWS (RDS) a surprising amount of money to run MySQL in a VM for them.

For infrastructure providers to "service-ize" you can set cost as a much smaller markup on the cost of the raw infrastructure. Most large organizations (AWS/GCE) have a model where they give some credit for the underlying infrastructure back to the team that servicized things. This is quite a bit different from a smaller startup that still needs to make some reasonable margin but has significant cost of goods of the infrastructure itself.

At the same time I fully agree with the notion that you should build and run a service, but if the marketing or even product perspective of such a thing is we installed a VM for you you're entirely missing the point. Having built an as-a-service product a few times over, there is a lot of engineering and product work that goes into it. Turn key backups, point in time recovery, high availability, performance monitoring are all not just installing a VM. And it's very different from building a core database engine. While there can be many benefits from collaborating on them, they are very different skill sets and the notion of focus shouldn't be underweighted.

Re: RethinkDB Postmortem

#54
post #30

Slava (coffeemug) is very brave to introspect publicly and whenever I interacted with him, behaved with greatest integrity and kindness. Unfortunately, his hypothesis here that devtools are a tough market does not ring true. Making a business is always tough, making one that does something new is even tougher. There are many tools and database companies doing extraordinarily well, from Atlassian to Cloudera to Docker…

Best comment in here.

Re: RethinkDB Postmortem

#55

What was the actual go to market strategy? Selling to enterprises? They have the money to spend but it seems like there was never an enterprise version of the software itself with features that are paid only. This is the high-margin sales that database companies build on, and then perhaps offer cloud and managed service to capture more spend. Support plans can also be great revenue, although they're not a sales drive…

I was told (by their lead engineer) a few weeks before RethinkDB shut down that they did have an enterprise version of the software with features that are paid only. However, clearly, that product introduction was too little too late.

Re: RethinkDB Postmortem

#56
I do find it truly sad how anti-intellectualism is pervading our industry and causing good products to die. Nowadays, a significant number of the hottest new technologies offer literally nothing of value beyond "low learning curve". It's my current belief that tech culture has lost nearly everything that once made us great.

Think about some examples.

MongoDB is nothing but the object databases of the 80's, rebranded. It's main selling point is "you don't need to learn SQL". Object databases failed and people at the time were willing to learn something new (SQL). Nowadays, who will do that?

Go's entire selling point is "faster than python, no need to learn anything new". In terms of language features it's again living in the 80's - Java got generics in 2004 and Java was way behind the times. In terms of speed it's worse than Java and Rust, maybe comparable to Haskell.

And NodeJS is nothing but "write server code, no need to learn a new language". Isomorphism simply didn't work. People think Node is fast because it can do async, but Java has been able to do threaded async for 15 years.

I wonder how much the industry could advance if we could simply persuade every developer to learn Java Postgres.

Re: RethinkDB Postmortem

#57
Hosted db is the way to go. Just as a perspective - this is 2017. How many multi-AZ, failover tolerant, hosted postgresql offerings do you know of?

RDS, Heroku and Compose. Google and Azure still dont do hosted postgres.

So many people pay for Dynamodb. You could be an alternative.

The point is - rethinkdb still exists. you could still do it. via preorders on Kickstarter.

Re: RethinkDB Postmortem

#58

I do find it truly sad how anti-intellectualism is pervading our industry and causing good products to die. Nowadays, a significant number of the hottest new technologies offer literally nothing of value beyond "low learning curve". It's my current belief that tech culture has lost nearly everything that once made us great. Think about some examples. MongoDB is nothing but the object databases of the 80's, rebranded.…

Interesting idea, but perhaps it's also possible to look at it as the industry broadening. 40 years ago, you had to be pretty knowledgeable to get anything at all done with computers. These days, it's possible for more people to do things, and yet there's still a market for people who are deeply knowledgeable.

A lot of people don't care much about the tech, and just want to build something. If easier (for them) tech lets them, that's a win, no?

Of course... that's easy to say but harder to swallow when they end up building something, making some money, and then hiring a developer to clean up their hideous mess. I've been there too.

Re: RethinkDB Postmortem

#59

Man, I would have loved to pay for RethinkDB. Granted, the blame lies on me here, but something I was disappointed to see the first point not acknowledge that RethinkDB didn't really ask for money. I mean, I don't know if they changed it after folding, but go the site and tell me how to pay for it. I would have paid a licensing fee to continue using it, but we've taken the time to switch over to Postgres now. EDIT: A…

On the other hand, I understand why most developers wouldn't pay "even the price of a Starbucks coffee" for the product: because paying anything as a developer is hard. It requires making the case for why you need it to other people in the company. Developers aren't usually in a position to make financial decisions on a whim, especially those where the cost will probably grow in the future.

Re: RethinkDB Postmortem

#60

I do find it truly sad how anti-intellectualism is pervading our industry and causing good products to die. Nowadays, a significant number of the hottest new technologies offer literally nothing of value beyond "low learning curve". It's my current belief that tech culture has lost nearly everything that once made us great. Think about some examples. MongoDB is nothing but the object databases of the 80's, rebranded.…

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