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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#591

Post by [deleted] »

tropo wrote: post #590
HerraBRE wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "collateral murder" video, which was based on Manning's leaks, is really quite chilling and definitely shows wrong doings that were then covered up by the government. There was more, but this was the most visual/memorable. I suggest you turn your scepticism to 11 and go watch it, see if you still feel the same way. https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/ (warning: if watching civilians, journalists and children b…

So, it's war. And??? The video: We see a guy carrying what looks like a rocket launcher. (it's a really really long telephoto lens) He is sneaking around with the enemy (sort of an embedded journalist) and peaking out from around corners, appearing to point a rocket launcher at the US military. Unsurprisingly, he gets blown to bits. We see an enemy hop over a wall while getting shot at. A minivan stops to get him. No…

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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#592

Post by boomboomsubban »

the_trapper wrote: post #563
boomboomsubban wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much time do you think someone on active duty in Iraq has to sort through data?

> How much time do you think someone on active duty in Iraq has to sort through data? You've clearly never been deployed. You have more free time than you know what to do with. Think about what you do when you get off shift at your job. Now remember that you have no family or friends that aren't also co-workers to hang out with. No alcohol, limited access to new movies and video games. You are also stuck within the c…

And you think you could use that free time to sort through thousands of pages of classified documents without your fellow soldiers or your superiors knowing? Time isn't the only relevant resource.

Maybe I'm an asshole, but the "put lives at risk" line seems like nationalistic swill. Even if it risked American combatants, why should that justify hiding the deaths of possibly fifteen thousand Iraqi civilians?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#593

Post by Natsu »

sjy wrote: post #548
Natsu wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, although IMHO it's not a very good one. Some of these should be taken with salt - http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/

For example, #6 claims that 'Hillary's campaign' wants an 'unaware and compliant citizenry,' on the basis of an unsolicited email to Podesta using that phrase to describe Trump's campaign strategy!

Assuming you're talking about this email -

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/3599

It's oversold, yes, but as far as I can tell, it's this Bill Ivey (NEA chairman under Clinton, Obama transition team member) and not some random spammer -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ivey

Other correspondence can be found here -

https://search.wikileaks.org/?q=bi%40globalculturalstrategie...

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#594

Post by Natsu »

Natsu wrote: post #302
the_duke wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a list of emails that contain actual unfavorable/damning information?

Yes, although IMHO it's not a very good one. Some of these should be taken with salt - http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/

I should also mention that it's fairly incomplete. E.G. no mention of this one that Wikileaks tweeted earlier regarding Taiwan -

https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/23730#efmAEGAEh...

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#595

Post by LargeCompanies »

scott_karana wrote: post #515
LargeCompanies wrote: post #336

He deserves this more then the coward Snowden!

Coward? He threw away a cush job, a home and relationship in Hawaii, and the ability to ever set foot in America again, for something that he did for others' benefit , and didn't stand to make any gains from. Sounds pretty brave to me, even if you disagree with his actions.

Huh who had a better quality of life? The guy living decently and freely in Russia with tons of admiration and fans or the guy no one knows that's locked up in solitary confinement???

I think the answer is an easy one and thus fleeing was a cowards move compared to the life Manning has led.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#596

Post by intrasight »

The extensive, reasoned, considerate discussion in HN on this complex topic makes me happy and gives me hope. HN is a modern iteration of the traditional literary salon.

Freedom is not free. Whistle-blowers pay a heavy price individually for the freedom of others. And Whistle-blower cases are rarely clear-cut.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#597

Post by wtbob »

adrienne wrote: post #422
rabidrat wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"He" is the pronoun that was used in their past, "she" is the pronoun for the present. When we're talking about the past+present for this person, I think "they" is not unreasonable. At least, it's more reasonable than trying to call someone out for their pronoun usage when the discussion is about a much more serious topic.

No, the correct way to do this is to use the individual's pronouns. Please note that the AP and the NYT have basically adopted the GLAAD style guide on this issue: http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender The NYT correctly stated in the parent article, "Ms. Manning was still known as Bradley Manning when she deployed with her unit to Iraq in late 2009." See how that works? She was always a she, even though she was…

> No, the correct way to do this is to use the individual's pronouns.

No, the correct way to do this is to use the correct pronouns, at least in the third person. One might refer to someone who believes he is Napoleon to his face as 'Your Majesty,' in order not to cause mental distress, but one is under no compunction to refer to him in the third person as 'His Majesty.' Likewise, no-one is under any compunction to refer to a man who believes that he is a woman in the feminine third person (although, in languages which have gendered second persons, it might be kind to use it face-to-face, again in order to avoid mental distress).

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#598

Post by grandalf »

wallace_f wrote: post #559
mcv wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exactly. Governments do need to be held accountable for secret crimes, secrecy should not be allowed to enable continuing those crimes. Exposing them was necessary, even if it was illegal. I do think Manning was naive and sloppy for handing the whole thing over to Assange, though in her defense, Assange seemed fairly reasonable and responsible at the time. It's only after this enormous leak that he seems to have…

I can sleep a lot better tonight having read this thread of thoughts after some of the awfulness I just read over at reddit. With this issue there is a remarkable degree of misinformation, as well as fascist ideology supporting the the surveillance state. These neverending, unechecked powers undermine civil rights and allow human rights abuses to go continue. And it's all wrapped in this package of 'a good liberal ju…

> I cannot understand how people do not fight back in solidarity with outrage against human and civil rights abuses

I think there is a very sad aspect of human nature which makes humans bow before power.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#599

Post by grandalf »

colechristensen wrote: post #222
mhurron wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classifying material should not be a way for the Government to hide corruption and wrongdoing. Whistle blowing is the only way that prevents that. Chelsea Manning acted on her conscience, which is the best we can expect anyone to do. The governments punishment was to prevent that happening again.

Snowden released a large volume of information to well qualified journalists who very carefully combed through the data to find the things most relevant and important for the American public to know. Information that was legitimately classified and had no whistleblowing value simply wasn't released. Manning released a large volume of information to the public en masse with no regard to it's whistleblowing value. Some…

None of this matters. What matters is the crimes committed by US officials when they illegally classified much of the information in the first place.

Of course Manning (or anyone who leaks) is likely to be an imperfect messenger. It's silly to focus on those details when there is a much bigger issue at stake.

FWIW I wish all of the Snowden data would have been given to Wikileaks. I have great respect for Glenn Greenwald, but the government has utterly failed to respond to the leaks in an appropriate way, which suggests a great lack of respect for the rule of law and the American people.

Instead, they pretended it hadn't happened and that no excesses occurred. I think several top level officials should have been removed and imprisoned and we should have seen footage of all the computers being carted out and put up for sale so that the money stolen to build the apparatus could be reimbursed to taxpayers.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#600

Post by [deleted] »

chc wrote: post #472
hackinthebochs wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's what you're saying No thats not what's being said. I would hope we could all be above strawmen.

As I said, I have a hard time believing that is what's meant, but I think that is a pretty fair summary of the big-picture implications of that proposal. If you don't think so, please explain how rather than throwing out the word "strawmen" and pretending you've debunked something.

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