Why with over 900 points and 339 comments is this item falling to #9 already? Mods?
I commented on this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13423073.
Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence
501–510 of 797 posts
Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence
#502Earlier quoted context omitted.
That was quite harmful. Nobody is going to talk to you in confidence if what they say, attributed, is going to get dumped on the internet.
Then maybe you shouldn't (repeatedly, incessantly, decade after decade) engage so shamelessly with forces of corruption and darkness such it that inspires people to take great personal risk to expose that information.
This has nothing to do with corruption. People talk even without getting paid. Not everyone realizes what they're saying is important or will become important in the future. Most of the time it's just background information.
Also, there's not necessarily an element of "great personal risk". It may just be social or embarrassment or minor damage to a career. If some flunky at a Peruvian consulate has a bit too much to drink and says his boss is an asshole, it gets written down and goes into a file somewhere. When people see that on the internet they think "Man, I really need to watch what I say to the Americans."
Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence
#503> “Mr. Snowden fled into the arms of an adversary, and has sought refuge in a country that most recently made a concerted effort to undermine confidence in our democracy.” What an amazingly loaded statement that is. Russia is just a straight up "adversary" now? Infuriating.
How would you describe Russia? How would you describe Snowden's flight from prosecution in the US?
Russia was an adversary before the Crimean annexation, shadow wars involving Iran and Syria make that clear.
Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence
#504Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, exactly. In my observation, even when people are trying to use "they" - like if they're telling someone a story where they're deliberately obfuscating someone's gender - folks often slip up midway through.
The volume of downvotes and hate comments you are getting for standing up on this issue is disturbing. I hope some of those commenters eventually reconsider whether the acceptance of disrespectful pronouns on HN is truly the cause they want to be known for.
I honestly believe the majority of the downvotes are because of tone, not position.
As for hate comments in response to any of 'adrienne's in this thread, I see three that are very uncivil and have been flagged dead (and won't appear unless you have showdead on). Another is arguably uncivil and has also received a net negative votes. If you have a separate tally, please point it out.
That's not to say all of the downvotes are purely for tone. There are people who will downvote out of spite or disagreement. One issue I do think a majority of HN members agree on is the value of civil, substantive discussion, regardless of topic. As a result, HN members do overwhelmingly downvote incivility, including incivility directed at 'adrienne's comments. Please note that multiple commenters have mentioned exactly this. If you contend that they're being insincere in doing so, you of course are free to do so, but it's unlikely that you're going to be able to constructively engage with them from a position of bad faith.
I want people to be able to discuss these types of things. Regardless of what people think should be, it remains a fact that not everyone agrees on a whole host of issues. Changing one's mind is hard; changing someone else's even harder. If I can't approach the discussion with the perspective that there's hope of some sort of understanding (if not yet agreement), I'll refrain from saying anything. It's not useful—and very likely counterproductive—to do otherwise.
Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence
#505Earlier quoted context omitted.
That was quite harmful. Nobody is going to talk to you in confidence if what they say, attributed, is going to get dumped on the internet.
Then maybe you shouldn't (repeatedly, incessantly, decade after decade) engage so shamelessly with forces of corruption and darkness such it that inspires people to take great personal risk to expose that information.
Diplomats need to engage with other countries, no matter how they're run. They also need to be able to talk clearly with one another about what they think things are like without it getting dumped all over the internet.
Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence
#506Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like by 2017 if someone hasn't become aware of trans issues it's because they're deliberately staying ignorant. I mean, this stuff is all over the news. Transgender people are constantly getting murdered and beaten, and people are even trying to prevent them from peeing in public bathrooms all the time . There are so many good resources about trans people online, and i expect a bunch of Smart and Rational and…
And yet I see multiple HN commenters discussing this topic. It may not be how you would prefer it be discussed; however, this is how people become educated. I think the mistake here is to reply to civil comments in an uncivil way because you don't feel that they are appropriately aware of trans issues. I would think anyone who wants to help educate others on these issues would welcome such a discussion.
Misgendering people is uncivil. It is insulting and dehumanizing. Why don't you start requiring civilty from your fellow HN commenters, rather than just me?
Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence
#507What exactly did Manning blow the whistle on? While Snowden exposed what he believed was illegal spying on Americans, Manning just leaked a bunch of classified information about war that he/she believed was immoral .
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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence
#508Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the public has benefited greatly > from the disclosures in the more > pertinent cable leaks Examples?
All kinds of stuff. Disclosure about what the U.S. diplomatic staff knew about corruption and torture in various countries -- and what they really thought about the ruling elites of these places, despite public statements to the contrary; attempts by companies such as Chevron, Lockheed-Martin, and Coca-Cola sought influence in certain countries; how the U.S. arranged to spy on UN officials, etc. Here's one of my pers…
How has the public benefitted from any of that? It sounds like your morbid curiosity has been satisfied, but who didn't know Libya under Gaddafi was a cesspit?
> Unless you think we're better off
> not knowing about this stuff, that is.
Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence
#509Commuting Manning's sentence without pardoning Snowden feels like politics to me. Manning's actions embarrassed the Bush administration so Obama will commute. Snowden's actions embarrassed the Obama administration so Obama won't pardon.
I disagree. Manning's intent and actions are far short of those of Snowden.
Snowden leaked information on valid espionage programs and possibly gave Russia the keys to the castle when he fled the country. I used to think Snowden deserved a pardon, and had it only been about the warrantless wiretapping I would still feel that way, but he leaked a number of things that damaged US relations in ways that have been highly beneficial to Russia.
I think Snowden is both a patriot and a traitor for what he did.
Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence
#510Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's actually explicitly in the Constitution: "The President...shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment." Article II, Section 2
So it's only possible if it was something that was done against the US?
"against the US" means crimes under US (federal) law.