Authoritarians Distract Rather Than Debate • Hacker News Board

Re: Authoritarians Distract Rather Than Debate

#111

Post by paradite » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 8:16 PM UTC

mturmon wrote: post #93

paradite wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. Can you recommend me some pro-China Western media? I am having trouble finding one.

I should be more precise. I'm trying to say that much Western writing is not critical of the decisions the Chinese political system has made about how society is organized there, despite its costs for the country. (E.g., the fast building of roads, trains, and infrastructure; the responsiveness of its electronics industry -- these things have costs for the people of China, but their benefits are very unequally distri…

On the contrary, I keep getting the sort of news that you are missing, on my daily dose of social media. Just yesterday, I got this:

http://www.economist.com/news/china/21714383-and-theres-lot-...

And plenty more critical of govt decisions (ghost city, pollution, food safety) from this particular Facebook page which is quite popular for news in China:

https://www.facebook.com/shanghaiist/

Re: Authoritarians Distract Rather Than Debate

#112

Post by malandrew » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 8:20 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #72

i'd say our political machine in the US has done a great job for the last 35 years at distracting us from the biggest social threat of our times: wealth disparity. instead, the public conversations revolve around terrorism, who uses which bathroom, twitter, celebrities, and even health insurance. if recent political movements (tea party, the 99%) and national elections have taught us anything, it's that this is incre…

why is wealth disparity the biggest social threat?

Economic rent I can see being concern, especially when regulatory capture is involved, but there are many reasons for increasing wealth disparity that are completely fair.

Many of those being rewarded with wealth have built and led companies that have improved productivity and allowed many of those on the other side of the wealth divide to do more with less. Is it not fair to compensate them accordingly for the ways they have improved general welfare?

Re: Authoritarians Distract Rather Than Debate

#113

Post by basch » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 8:25 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #83

clairity wrote: post #72

i'd say our political machine in the US has done a great job for the last 35 years at distracting us from the biggest social threat of our times: wealth disparity. instead, the public conversations revolve around terrorism, who uses which bathroom, twitter, celebrities, and even health insurance. if recent political movements (tea party, the 99%) and national elections have taught us anything, it's that this is incre…

You are right. Unfortunately the american electorate is easy to manipulate so they will blame their problems on other groups that are suffering the same problems. Instead of asking why salaries don't go up anymore while the company makes record profits people start attacking each other. The last election was a classical example of distraction. there was almost no discussion of things that would make people's lifes be…

>the american electorate is easy to manipulate

that is a feature of democracy not unique to America

Re: Authoritarians Distract Rather Than Debate

#114

Post by chillingeffect » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 8:29 PM UTC

There is no doubt that memes and social media have been militarized for propaganda use. This presentation from a consulting agency to many U.S. TLAs and defense contractors outlines the strategies and contains numerous references to DoD work in the area. It gives models, tells what metrics to use, identifies roles, etc.

http://robotictechnologyinc.com/index.php/military-memetics

Either find the PDF halfway down, or just go here: http://robotictechnologyinc.com/images/upload/file/Presentat...

And here is their 1,680 page compendium of ~100 papers on the subject which they used as references: http://robotictechnologyinc.com/images/upload/file/Memetics%...

Distraction is a tactic, but it's only a single tool in the strategy. It's also relevant when to distract, when to counter, when to ignore, etc.

Re: Authoritarians Distract Rather Than Debate

#115

Post by jpfed » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 8:34 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #79

battlebot wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they're not, it is highly effective--I saw it firsthand during the run up to the Gulf War in 2003. I was on a message board and suddenly there would be all these "pro war" type members showing up posting basically propaganda and giving people a hard time and mostly creating chaos. The latest time I saw this behavior was on Reddit during the just completed 2016 elections. And then my suspicions were validated when…

I remember the gulf war, I remember long established members of the boards I inhabited at the time, usually but not always with a right-wing lean, going absolutely bananas at the time. And even the more reasonable ones basically lost the plot. If you really want a conspiracy theory, I'd point to the government and Fox news being desperate to pivot from 9/11 to one of the wars they'd been planning. I also remember Red…

>The whole Correct the Record thing is on a par with pizzagate.

Do you mind clarifying in what respects they were similar to you? I haven't heard much in the way of specifics re CtR, but pizzagate was just... zero percent true. Was CtR similarly untruthful, or were they similar in some other dimension you find relevant?

Re: Authoritarians Distract Rather Than Debate

#116

Post by clairity » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 8:42 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #97

clairity wrote: post #72

i'd say our political machine in the US has done a great job for the last 35 years at distracting us from the biggest social threat of our times: wealth disparity. instead, the public conversations revolve around terrorism, who uses which bathroom, twitter, celebrities, and even health insurance. if recent political movements (tea party, the 99%) and national elections have taught us anything, it's that this is incre…

distracting us from the biggest social threat of our times: wealth disparity. instead, the public conversations revolve around terrorism, who uses which bathroom, twitter, celebrities, and even health insurance. Isn't health insurance a wealth disparity issue?

it's certainly related, but the current political theater to repeal and replace the ACA seems to be an effort to take credit rather than make meaningful improvements. as citizens we shouldn't reward such unproductive behavior with our attention, much less our support.

Re: Authoritarians Distract Rather Than Debate

#117

Post by codr4life » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 8:53 PM UTC

jpfed wrote: post #115

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the gulf war, I remember long established members of the boards I inhabited at the time, usually but not always with a right-wing lean, going absolutely bananas at the time. And even the more reasonable ones basically lost the plot. If you really want a conspiracy theory, I'd point to the government and Fox news being desperate to pivot from 9/11 to one of the wars they'd been planning. I also remember Red…

>The whole Correct the Record thing is on a par with pizzagate. Do you mind clarifying in what respects they were similar to you? I haven't heard much in the way of specifics re CtR, but pizzagate was just... zero percent true. Was CtR similarly untruthful, or were they similar in some other dimension you find relevant?

Was it now :) Boy, are you in for nasty surprises once the truth hits the fan for real. It didn't bother you a tiny bit that the whole stinking pile of bullshit peddlers went into panic mode to cover everything up asap?

Re: Authoritarians Distract Rather Than Debate

#118

Post by lacampbell » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 8:56 PM UTC

mturmon wrote: post #68

lacampbell wrote: post #62

This makes me wonder more at the pro-Chinese position of a lot of western media, particularly the New York Times. Its fairly telling that Taiwan is most often described as a "renegade province" as opposed to a "peaceful high-income democracy", for example. Having talked to a lot of English speaking, wealthy, educated, overseas Chinese people I am always disturbed at how many of them take communist party positions, de…

Googling: [site:nytimes.com] [renegade] [province] turns up only things like: "Beijing has maintained that Taiwan is a renegade province..." which is perfectly factual. I do agree with your larger point that a lot of stories in Western media are uncritical of the shortcomings and risks of the Chinese political system.

Find an article about Kosovo. It's never referred to as a renegade province. They will simply state that Serbia doesn't recognise its independence. The position that is at odds with the facts on the ground is never given credibility.

Re: Authoritarians Distract Rather Than Debate

#119

Post by cmurf » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 9:04 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #72

i'd say our political machine in the US has done a great job for the last 35 years at distracting us from the biggest social threat of our times: wealth disparity. instead, the public conversations revolve around terrorism, who uses which bathroom, twitter, celebrities, and even health insurance. if recent political movements (tea party, the 99%) and national elections have taught us anything, it's that this is incre…

George Carlin, the American dream (quite cynical) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsL6mKxtOlQ

Hillbilly Elegy https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/11/books/review-in-hillbilly...

My version: Republican party platform does not believe in the "veil of ignorance" at all whatsoever. They support neo-feudalism and aristocracy. Equality is fake, people are in fact different, those differences should be rewarded and punished in a free market, it is considered unfair to force equality to be true. Even equality under the law is negotiable, where those who can afford better lawyers get better justice.

Democrats are tone deaf, and suck at marketing their own policy successes. They'd rather convince people to vote for them on the basis of a smug liberalism which says if only people had the facts they'd vote Democrat. Ergo if you vote Republican you're either stupid or evil. This is not a winning strategy, obviously.

Re: Authoritarians Distract Rather Than Debate

#120

Post by ishields » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 9:05 PM UTC

throwawaywd4252 wrote: post #110

clairity wrote: post #72

i'd say our political machine in the US has done a great job for the last 35 years at distracting us from the biggest social threat of our times: wealth disparity. instead, the public conversations revolve around terrorism, who uses which bathroom, twitter, celebrities, and even health insurance. if recent political movements (tea party, the 99%) and national elections have taught us anything, it's that this is incre…

This comment contains a couple of strong and unsubstantiated assertions. 1. Wealth disparity is an issue -- this needs to be justified beyond an appeal to fairness. Why is this an issue at all? Is the real issue the decline of the middle class? Is that necessarily connected to increasing wealth in the upper class? 2. The election of Donald Trump is a 'lose-lose' scenario. How? What, specifically, about his proposed p…

>2. The election of Donald Trump is a 'lose-lose' scenario. How? What, specifically, about his proposed policies has a demonstrably negative impact on the quality of life for American citizens and the United States' geopolitical influence?

There's more to a president than their proposed policies. Trump's bigoted rhetoric is already having a demonstrably negative impact on the quality of life for many minorities in the USA (and he's not even in office yet)

https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656?lang=en