Theresa May: UK must leave European single market • Hacker News Board

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#151

Post by corney91 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:56 PM UTC

lucozade wrote: post #132

aaron-lebo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it for real or isn't that just a politician trying to sell something (which it sounds remarkably like)? One of the reasons Brexit is happening (at least it's argued) is due to bureaucracy. Should we agree with the quote or find it wrong in hindsight?

> Should we agree with the quote or find it wrong in hindsight? What Thatcher was talking about was literally a single market i.e. where one could buy and sell goods without tariff and other protectionist restrictions. What we have now with the EU is most definitely not that. We have free movement of people, a much expanded EU with qualified majority voting, significant social (as against economic) legislation, and t…

>We have free movement of people,

A single market includes the free movement of labour, as well as goods and services. Hence, restricting immigration is equivalent to leaving the single market. If we're to have tarriff-free trade with the EU but barriers on migration, that's surely a "protectionist restriction" on British jobs.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#152

Post by akjainaj » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:56 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #148

akjainaj wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe if the UK could have chosen to control immigration from A8 countries, Brexit would have never happened. I don't think it would have mattered if the UK actually did restrict immigration or not, it's more about not having the power to choose to restrict it.

Maybe, and not necessarily a direct control For example, not giving unemployment benefits for those that just had arrived (though it seems this applies to all kinds of immigration)

You don't have to hate brown people (as you said up there) to understand that a system that gives benefits to people who have never contributed to it is not sustainable in the long term. And citizens from A8 countries are barely brown, anyway. ;P

I believe political correctness triggered Brexit, and will eventually kill the EU (not only because of immigration, though)

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#153

Post by NetStrikeForce » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:57 PM UTC

literallycancer wrote: post #145

coldtea wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am yet to understand how the EU makes it easier for bigger countries to step on the small ones. Do you think Germany wouldn't be able to throw its weight around to push Poland, Czechia or Slovakia to do whatever they want to? Who would legally put an opposition to that? Those countries themselves -- and any other state actor, that is not tied by a bureaucracy they don't control but Germany does. > The lack of an…

The distribution of seats in the EP clearly favors smaller countries. The smallest country, Malta, has one seat for every 70,227 people. Germany has one seat for every 838,789 people.[1] Even if Germany, France, the UK, Italy and Spain decided to vote together, the others can still win a vote against them. (Also, the EP is split according to political ideologies, not nationalities, so this scenario is unrealistic.) 1…

With all due respect to coldtea (heresy! :)), but it is like the most hardcore Brexiters know very little about the EU.

Who's to blame? Hard to say, but no one's free of guilt here.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#154

Post by srssays » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:57 PM UTC

hkjgkjy wrote: post #124

lwhi wrote: post #41

I find her language very problematic. I didn't vote to leave—so when she claims to be speaking for the British people, I'm left wondering how my voice can count. I'm part of 48% of 72.2%; a lot of people are likely to share my concern. We need a general election. She speaks of what 'she wants'—the most problematic part of this surreal theatrical horror story is fact we the country didn't vote for her. I don't want th…

27.8% chose not to have a say in it then. Leaving the EU means leaving the single market, and a majority voted for that. It's not too late for the UK - if you do have a general election, and one party promises to not follow the Brexit referendum, and they win, I guess the EU will stay. But then people will moan about government not following the voice of the people, as expressed by the referendum.

The desire for a Norway-style agreement was voiced frequently before and after the referendum by various Leave politicians (e.g. Hannan and Boris). Since Leave isn't a party, it didn't and doesn't have any policies.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#155

Post by mcintyre1994 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:57 PM UTC

mathw wrote: post #109

tomelders wrote: post #34

All because people think 3.5% of the population (immigrants) is 20% of the population. No one - no matter what they may claim today - voted for this. At the time they were saying "we'll get access to the single market because we're special". I'm completely lost and hopeless. We've torn up everything that's good because it's difficult, and we're exchanging it for everything that's bad, and will be a thousand times mor…

I don't understand how we got here. I understand that the media picked up a massive campaign to leave, because the various super-rich owners of the popular press decided Brexit was the thing to support. I understand that there were a lot of lies told and that people believed enough of those told by the Leave side that they decided to vote that way. I don't understand how a slender majority in favour of leaving ended…

The left is in disarray, the only threats to May are from the further right in her party and outside (mainly UKIP). Since they're the only threats they're the only groups worth appeasing to maintain her job.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#156

Post by sandbags » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:58 PM UTC

SixSigma wrote: post #129

sandbags wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there was a vote. But it was a vote on a very ambiguous set of terms that was also an advisory vote, not a binding vote. This vote has been taken by an unelected Prime Minister serving out a term won on a mandate to protect UK interests in Europe. The current PM's actions are quite illegitimate.

Which election had "I want David Cameron as PM" on the ballot? I only remember having the option to vote in parliamentary elections for my local MP.

On the leadership of the party I concede, strictly, your point. We don't vote for a PM, although clearly people knew who they were voting to be the PM.

But the government was elected with a manifesto commitment to protect our interests in Europe and hold a referendum. It was not, to my knowledge, invested with a mandate to act on that referendum in the way that it is doing.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#157

Post by raesene6 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:58 PM UTC

lwhi wrote: post #41

I find her language very problematic. I didn't vote to leave—so when she claims to be speaking for the British people, I'm left wondering how my voice can count. I'm part of 48% of 72.2%; a lot of people are likely to share my concern. We need a general election. She speaks of what 'she wants'—the most problematic part of this surreal theatrical horror story is fact we the country didn't vote for her. I don't want th…

To me a referendum is a clearer mandate than any general election (especially using a First Past the Post system) as it's more focused on a single topic and is (partially) free of the baggage of party alliegance.

Given the percentage of the electorate who supported the current government at the last general election, it doesn't seem likely that you'd get a clearer mandate from a new one.

It seems to me that Mrs May didn't have a lot of choice here, a large portion of the exit vote (which won) was predicated on "control the borders" and the only way that can be delivered is by leaving the single market, anything else is evidently not delivering the will of the majority.

(before you assuming I'm a brexiter, I'm not, personally I think it's a terrible idea, however we live in a democracy and the exit vote won, simple as that)

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#158

Post by sandbags » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:58 PM UTC

Noseshine wrote: post #128

sandbags wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there was a vote. But it was a vote on a very ambiguous set of terms that was also an advisory vote, not a binding vote. This vote has been taken by an unelected Prime Minister serving out a term won on a mandate to protect UK interests in Europe. The current PM's actions are quite illegitimate.

You can twist and turn it any way you like, there WAS a vote, it was democratic, and you just keep complaining and whining about democracy when you don't like the outcome. The current PM's actions are quite illegitimate. If that is so go to the courts. Otherwise whatever you say is just an empty bag of hot air. Of course, you won't do that - because you know very well the current UK government is perfectly legitimate…

I will add that there are two current legal challenges and I suspect there will be more.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#159

Post by alphonsegaston » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:59 PM UTC

derrickdirge wrote: post #75

chii wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a shared set of values is. except they never had this - the richer countries see their contribution as a drain (e.g., the almost collapse for the greeks), unlike the american state, which distributes the federal taxes somewhat more "evently", and there's no "Us vs Them" mentality.

> the american state, which distributes the federal taxes somewhat more "evently", and there's no "Us vs Them" mentality. The level of naïveté displayed in this comment is shocking.

In threads about the EU/Brexit, I've seen repeated arguments about how the EU can't function like the United States because of how much more unified Americans are now and historically. It all quite laughably ignores how all of our stability has only come from increased federal authority whenever we've had similar crises. I guess Europeans are as ignorant of American history as we are of their's.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#160

Post by mfukar » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:59 PM UTC

blibble wrote: post #45

mfukar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, are you doubting the existence of a single market for EU members? Because if you are, reality is very persuasive.

there is certainly a single market for goods, services is far from complete it makes the statement "four freedoms are indivisible" somewhat hollow, because there has never been full freedom of services

I ~~have been~~ was a consultant in the EU for about 3 years w/ clients in 7 different countries. All I (additionally) had to do was mark a checkbox on my income tax statements.

If that checkbox was all that held me from "full freedom", then I concede your point.