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Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

bbc.com

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Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#141

Post by matthewmacleod »

Noseshine wrote: post #93
lwhi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused why my comment has been downvoted. Theresa May was not voted into government. Only 52% of (72.2%) of the population voted for Brexit. Quite a disappointing response.

The point is there WAS a vote. A democratic vote. I'm looking at it from the outside and don't care either way - except that the way some very vocal ones of the so-called "remainers" dislike democracy and voting as soon as they don't get what they want disgusts me. Remember your attitude when some day - inevitably - it will be the other way around, you won a vote and the other side comes up with the same arguments.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of the situation.

Yes, there was a referendum – but it wasn't a good one. It was advisory only – i.e. not binding – there was a narrow margin, no minimum turnout or majority requirements, and no concrete plan which was being voted on, or even any set of proposals from government. Two of the four countries in the UK voted to remain in the EU.

It think it's wholly reasonable to question a decision of such huge magnitude being made on the basis of a referendum in those circumstances.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#142

Post by akjainaj »

raverbashing wrote: post #76
akjainaj wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is funny because if the EU is to survive, immigration controls will have to be put in place. Many countries are already demanding to control their borders. So when that happens, the UK will feel stupid for leaving, I suppose. They could've just waited.

"control the borders!!!11" are one of the catch-phrases that make absolutely no sense for people with only a modest understanding of how it actually works But I'm sure to some Brexiters brown people at the streets is the fault of the EU somehow

I believe if the UK could have chosen to control immigration from A8 countries, Brexit would have never happened.

I don't think it would have mattered if the UK actually did restrict immigration or not, it's more about not having the power to choose to restrict it.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#143

Post by matthewmacleod »

peteretep wrote: post #139
ar0 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't this in many ways actually even more risky? When Parliament gets its vote, the two year exit period will almost certainly be almost over and a vote of Parliament will not be able to stop the exit. Instead it will be a vote on the new arrangements with the EU. So either they just have to rubberstamp whatever gets put to them or - if they vote down these new arrangements - Britain will be left outside of the…

The two year exit period can't start until parliament votes, because May doesn't have the authority to trigger Article 51 without parliament

My understanding is that there are two distinct parliamentary votes – one on the triggering of Article 50, and one on the final settlement with the EU. The former starts the mandatory two-year withdrawal process.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#144

Post by matthewmacleod »

sjg007 wrote: post #19
matthewmacleod wrote: post #12

This is almost certainly a collosal act of self-harm, and deeply short-sighted. I was desperately hopeful that the whole Brexit situation could be salvaged in some way, and that some way forward for liberalism might be figured out such that the rising tide of populism could be countered. I'm less and less confident about that.

Parliament has to vote on it... might be hope

At the moment, the opposition in the UK is in total disarray and making rather a hash of things. It's likely that a substantial number would back the government's plans.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#145

Post by literallycancer »

coldtea wrote: post #106
NetStrikeForce wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am yet to understand how the EU makes it easier for bigger countries to step on the small ones. Do you think Germany wouldn't be able to throw its weight around to push Poland, Czechia or Slovakia to do whatever they want to? Who would legally put an opposition to that? The lack of an existing legal framework agreed upon all actors would mean there's no deterrent for an escalation if, let's say, France or UK decide…

> I am yet to understand how the EU makes it easier for bigger countries to step on the small ones. Do you think Germany wouldn't be able to throw its weight around to push Poland, Czechia or Slovakia to do whatever they want to? Who would legally put an opposition to that? Those countries themselves -- and any other state actor, that is not tied by a bureaucracy they don't control but Germany does. > The lack of an…

The distribution of seats in the EP clearly favors smaller countries. The smallest country, Malta, has one seat for every 70,227 people. Germany has one seat for every 838,789 people.[1]

Even if Germany, France, the UK, Italy and Spain decided to vote together, the others can still win a vote against them. (Also, the EP is split according to political ideologies, not nationalities, so this scenario is unrealistic.)

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_...

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#146

Post by taway_1212 »

blibble wrote: post #45
mfukar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, are you doubting the existence of a single market for EU members? Because if you are, reality is very persuasive.

there is certainly a single market for goods, services is far from complete it makes the statement "four freedoms are indivisible" somewhat hollow, because there has never been full freedom of services

Can confirm on that the single market for services is far from reality.

Today, if I'm a consultant and have a consultancy company registered in EU country X, if I come to EU country Y to provide my services there, it's pretty likely that I will have to set up a separate company in Y or Y's tax people will be after me (that's currently the situation in UK for example).

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#147

Post by mangecoeur »

derrickdirge wrote: post #56
harryf wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I want my money back!" Margret Thatcher at the European Union summit in Dublin in 1980 "That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a European superstate was ever embarked upon will seem in future years to be perhaps the greatest folly of the modern era. And that Britain, with her traditional strengths and global destiny, should ever have been part of it will appear a political error of historic magn…

> global destiny Does this mean what it sounds like it means?

People in the UK haven't quite gotten over that whole global empire thing. Every now and then they make documentaries about how they brought civilization to India or something.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#148

Post by raverbashing »

akjainaj wrote: post #142
raverbashing wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"control the borders!!!11" are one of the catch-phrases that make absolutely no sense for people with only a modest understanding of how it actually works But I'm sure to some Brexiters brown people at the streets is the fault of the EU somehow

I believe if the UK could have chosen to control immigration from A8 countries, Brexit would have never happened. I don't think it would have mattered if the UK actually did restrict immigration or not, it's more about not having the power to choose to restrict it.

Maybe, and not necessarily a direct control

For example, not giving unemployment benefits for those that just had arrived (though it seems this applies to all kinds of immigration)

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#149

Post by NetStrikeForce »

ohstopitu wrote: post #137
NetStrikeForce wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further proof many, many people don't understand democracy and think you're not allowed a voice. People, democracy is not the tyranny of the majority. Quite the opposite actually.

how does democracy protect the minority? (not saying the minority does not have a voice, but how does it help, if they'll always be voted out?) And if so (and this being a political thread) - Trump being elected is totally legit even though he got less votes (as he was voted by the majority in more than half the states) ? Asking as an outsider - I just feel like everytime the popular opinion does not get voted in - t…

> how does democracy protect the minority? (not saying the minority does not have a voice, but how does it help, if they'll always be voted out?)

With separation of powers and the rule of law.

> And if so (and this being a political thread) - Trump being elected is totally legit even though he got less votes (as he was voted by the majority in more than half the states) ?

1- Everywhere I've lived in, my vote has had less power than the average of the state / region. I'm OK with that because otherwise all policies will only favour the overpopulated areas.

2- I don't know all the US election details, but apparently you've got a big issue with corruption that in this case reflects on gerrymandering.

3- If the situation was the opposite, Hillary winning despite less votes, I guess you wouldn't consider it legit? Don't answer me, that's easy; answer internally to yourself. Be sincere.

4- Your problem with Trump is that your "left" candidate is so to the right, that there's no room for human decency at her right. Just think about it, what's a more right-wing policy that doesn't go against climate change, equality/equity, worker's rights, military intervention, radicalisation of your police force, for profit prison system, stupid healthcare system, ... Should I keep going?

> Asking as an outsider - I just feel like everytime the popular opinion does not get voted in - there's an "justified" outcry (but if the majority had won - and there was an outcry by the minority - that's them being childish/not respecting democracy etc.)

There are always outcries when there's a strong division on a topic. We need to make sure our values stand every single time, whether our opinion wins or we loses.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#150

Post by sandbags »

Noseshine wrote: post #128
sandbags wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there was a vote. But it was a vote on a very ambiguous set of terms that was also an advisory vote, not a binding vote. This vote has been taken by an unelected Prime Minister serving out a term won on a mandate to protect UK interests in Europe. The current PM's actions are quite illegitimate.

You can twist and turn it any way you like, there WAS a vote, it was democratic, and you just keep complaining and whining about democracy when you don't like the outcome. The current PM's actions are quite illegitimate. If that is so go to the courts. Otherwise whatever you say is just an empty bag of hot air. Of course, you won't do that - because you know very well the current UK government is perfectly legitimate…

Why do you have to take such a tone? Can we not disagree and argue without adhominem attacks?

Your argument is a fallacy. In any division there are going to be those who agree and disagree with the outcome. Of course the people who get what they "wanted" don't argue against it. But they also shouldn't argue against the legitimacy of those who don't to continue to argue their point. That is the difference here.

Yes, there was a vote on an advisory referendum that had not specific details about what the outcome should be. What does that make legitimate?

If Theresa may had decided that to leave the EU we had to go to war with Europe, would that be legitimised by the vote?

This argument is about the terms of any such approach and how to legitimise those.

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