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Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

bbc.com

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Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#51

Post by ar0 »

sjg007 wrote: post #19
matthewmacleod wrote: post #12

This is almost certainly a collosal act of self-harm, and deeply short-sighted. I was desperately hopeful that the whole Brexit situation could be salvaged in some way, and that some way forward for liberalism might be figured out such that the rising tide of populism could be countered. I'm less and less confident about that.

Parliament has to vote on it... might be hope

But isn't this in many ways actually even more risky?

When Parliament gets its vote, the two year exit period will almost certainly be almost over and a vote of Parliament will not be able to stop the exit. Instead it will be a vote on the new arrangements with the EU. So either they just have to rubberstamp whatever gets put to them or - if they vote down these new arrangements - Britain will be left outside of the EU without any new deal in place.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#52

Post by tornadoboy55 »

coldtea wrote: post #23
emptyfile wrote: post #5

"It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer. Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than…

> It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. Actually it was a bureaucratic plan all along, and badly managed. And you still can have great access to the same 320 million market even outside of it (like e.g. China or Japan have) -- with the extra benefit that you don't have a German-controlled ECB to impose you rules and monetary policy.

> And you still can have great access to the same 320 million market even outside of it (like e.g. China or Japan have) -- with the extra benefit that you don't have a German-controlled ECB to impose you rules and monetary policy.

Yes, but if you are officially retailing in the EU you are obliged to adhere to EU warranty regulations, to EU safety regulations (flame retardation etc.), you must charge VAT (and pay it to the EU), etc. etc.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#53

Post by JohnStrange »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #22
emptyfile wrote: post #5

"It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer. Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than…

Was it for real or isn't that just a politician trying to sell something (which it sounds remarkably like)? One of the reasons Brexit is happening (at least it's argued) is due to bureaucracy. Should we agree with the quote or find it wrong in hindsight?

No way. Brexit was primarily caused by xenophobia in combination with lack of education about how the EU works. Most people don't even know how many unanimous votes of all member states were necessary to get to the contemporary EU in the first place.

Had there been a simple test of 10 questions about how the EU works, drawn from 100 previously published questions, that needed to be answered in order to qualify as a voter, then the Brexit would never have happened. Likewise, if there hadn't coincidentally been a bloody civil war in Syria with many refugees looking for a new future at the time of the Brexit, then the Brexit would also never had happened.

Coincidence and lack of knowledge have determined the fate of the UK and Europe as a whole for the next fifty to hundred years or so. But you could say the same about many other historic decisions and events.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#54

Post by rayiner »

It'll be interesting to see how the UK handles this. I suspect they will fail, but they should be applauded for trying. A single market is not an unmitigated good. The single market that exists within the U.S. is the major reason why federalism has failed. When governments can't exercise control over commerce with external entities, it becomes impossible to really chart a destiny distinct from the larger union. Massachusetts can't just decide to become a Scandanavian-style welfare state if it can't control the flow of people and commerce across its borders. Companies could relocate over the border and still access the rich Massachusetts market; people can move to Massachusetts only when they get sick; etc.

The American single market is why state socreignty is such a farce, and the U.K. has wiser up to that reality.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#55

Post by andybak »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #46
coldtea wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. Actually it was a bureaucratic plan all along, and badly managed. And you still can have great access to the same 320 million market even outside of it (like e.g. China or Japan have) -- with the extra benefit that you don't have a German-controlled ECB to impose you rules and monetary policy.

What double standards! So, trade tariffs and custom agreements: bureaucracy; restrictions on free movement [1] - that's just the will of the people! Populism is going to cost the UK dearly. And not just in terms of money. The UK is heading headlong into a kind of society taken straight out of the pages of "V for Vendetta". ________________ [1] "Controls on immigration"

> The UK is heading headlong into a kind of society taken straight out of the pages of "V for Vendetta".

I call "Godwin by Proxy".

There's many reasons to fear current trends but it's a touch premature to predict we're about to become a fascist dictatorship.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#56

Post by derrickdirge »

harryf wrote: post #38
emptyfile wrote: post #5

"It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer. Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than…

"I want my money back!" Margret Thatcher at the European Union summit in Dublin in 1980 "That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a European superstate was ever embarked upon will seem in future years to be perhaps the greatest folly of the modern era. And that Britain, with her traditional strengths and global destiny, should ever have been part of it will appear a political error of historic magn…

> global destiny

Does this mean what it sounds like it means?

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#57

Post by KaiserPro »

sjg007 wrote: post #19
matthewmacleod wrote: post #12

This is almost certainly a collosal act of self-harm, and deeply short-sighted. I was desperately hopeful that the whole Brexit situation could be salvaged in some way, and that some way forward for liberalism might be figured out such that the rising tide of populism could be countered. I'm less and less confident about that.

Parliament has to vote on it... might be hope

There is no opposition(labour). No one with balls(to stand up and fught for what they all believe. only 1/4 MPs are probrexit). It'll be a rubber stamp, even if it involves replacing the the house of lords with a rubber stamp. Because thats how we bring back parliamentary sovereignty.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#58

Post by BjoernKW »

emptyfile wrote: post #5

"It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer. Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than…

Nice words and I agree with the message. The implementation however is often still deeply flawed. Quite often it's nothing but some aloof bureaucrat's plan (or shall I say pipe dream?).

A prime example of this is VAT regulations in the EU, which supposedly have been harmonised and simplified some time ago yet with every iteration, with every 'simplification' they just got worse, less harmonious and more unwieldy to handle for companies buying or selling goods or services in other EU countries.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#59

Post by tornadoboy55 »

mojuba wrote: post #40
headmelted wrote: post #9

For anyone not familiar with British political etiquette, the phrase: "the UK cannot remain within the European single market, as staying in it would mean not leaving the EU at all" can be interpreted as: "I told them they better give us a special exception for single market access and no immigration and they laughed at me".

And for anyone not familiar with what's likely going on behind the scenes: it's about lowering the corporation tax in the UK. I don't know whether this is a new idea or not, but it would give the UK the leverage it needs in negotiations; will persuade many multinational corporations to stay and will even attract new ones. However, there will be a lot of pain for ordinary people in the interim. Not for corporations th…

> will persuade many multinational corporations to stay and will even attract new ones

No. To have access to the EU single market, your company MUST have its main base of operation be in a EU member state.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#60

Post by thirdsun »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #22
emptyfile wrote: post #5

"It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer. Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than…

Was it for real or isn't that just a politician trying to sell something (which it sounds remarkably like)? One of the reasons Brexit is happening (at least it's argued) is due to bureaucracy. Should we agree with the quote or find it wrong in hindsight?

Oh, I think it was very real - one of the great things about the EU is the fact that it doesn't matter whether I buy from or sell to france, austria, germany, portugal or hungary. No customs fees, delays or complicated export documents and a common return policy. As someone who knows both sides, this ease of access is great for sellers and buyers alike.

Frankly, I'd love to do the same with goods to and from the US, but since it comes with a lot of barriers, I simply don't buy from there. And at work we don't sell our physical goods to non-EU countries. So, yes, it's makes a difference.

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