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Yes, organic farming will kill us all

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Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#71

Post by stefantalpalaru »

avar wrote: post #17

Organic isn't the answer, it's trying to address some legitimate concerns, but it's a movement full of scientific woo-woo that's been legislated. For instance, organic farming thinks GMO's are bad, but is just fine with irradiating large fields full of plants to accomplish random mutations through radiation breeding. This article is one example of this, the author decries traditional corn fields, and as a counterexam…

> For instance, organic farming thinks GMO's are bad, but is just fine with irradiating large fields full of plants to accomplish random mutations through radiation breeding.

Radiation induces single-nucleotide mutations that need to get past some cellular defence mechanisms before becoming viable. Those are much easier to test and debug than shooting DNA-covered heavy metal particles with a gene gun into target cells so random genetic material can be inserted at random places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_gun

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#72

Post by KaiserPro »

geon wrote: post #36
avar wrote: post #17

Organic isn't the answer, it's trying to address some legitimate concerns, but it's a movement full of scientific woo-woo that's been legislated. For instance, organic farming thinks GMO's are bad, but is just fine with irradiating large fields full of plants to accomplish random mutations through radiation breeding. This article is one example of this, the author decries traditional corn fields, and as a counterexam…

"just fine with irradiating large fields full of plants" Are you referring to UV/cosmic radiation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_gardening

and

http://www.ediblegeography.com/strange-and-beautiful-seeds-f...

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#73

Post by ansible »

7sigma wrote: post #52
loup-vaillant wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why GMO is bad is probably not because of the "Modified" part. It's because they're optimised to withstand heavy pesticide use. Pesticides are bad. Also, that freedom thing: GMO are generally sterile, so you have to buy seeds every year from Monsanto. Great business model for Monsanto, not so much for the farmer.

"It's because they're optimised to withstand heavy pesticide use" Actually, GMOs need less pesticides than non GMO crop. Some of them produce their own pesticide (BT corn and BT cotton). "Pesticides are bad." Thats kind of the point, they are bad to pests that try to eat the crop "GMO are generally sterile" You are confusing GMO with hybrids and no they are not sterile, the just lose vigour after a few generations, s…

Thats kind of the point, they are bad to pests that try to eat the crop

And pesticides are also bad for other insects that don't eat the crops, and are necessary for our ecosystem to function.

And pesticides are bad for people and animals in the longer term too.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#74

Post by jeromenerf »

snovv_crash wrote: post #3

One thing I don't see him cover is how to deal with the "ecosystem" which will form around, and eventually consume, a fully organic permaculture farm. One of the big advantages of monoculture is that you usually only need to protect against a single class of pests in a specific area.

This is a common misconception.

Every culture faces multiple classes of pests: virii, fungus, bacterias, nematods, insects, rodents, birds...

What is good to control a pest can be beneficial to another since they compete for the same resource.

In the intensive context of monoculture, losing a battle often means losing the war.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#76

Post by TeMPOraL »

roel_v wrote: post #60
throwaway1892 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Farming lobby in Europe For my perspective in France, here the farming lobby is inexistant/inefficient, since farmers had to big pretty big actions all over France just to raise the price of milk. So I think it's not the farming lobby, but the fertilizers and pesticides lobby.

It's a lot more complicated than that. There isn't one single 'farming lobby'. France, to take your example, has a highly inefficient agricultural system, heavily dependent on CAP subsidies. There has been massive pressure the last two decades to reduce that, but it hasn't happened yet and probably won't for years to come. This is a form of 'lobbying' (those farmers get benefits from those subsidies), even if those f…

> a weird concept in the first place, since this is a very basic supply/demand thing (...) but then it's a matter of setting import restrictions, not having an artificial price floor enforced

I sometimes wonder if such concepts aren't simply the limits of human mind in action - price floor is simple, farmers can do some basic calculations and figure out that "if only milk costed at least €this, we could finally make a profit on it" (this is obviously ignoring all the clever ways markets can work around such increases, but that's complexity again). It's also a single thing to ask for. On the other hand, changing import tariffs is complicated, affects many things, and its effect on milk prices is indirect and therefore hard to predict.

It's like two different perspectives - from God's eye view on the country as a system, it's obvious you have to tweak some internals to get the desired effect. But from the perspective of people on the sides of the system asking someone to change something, those internals may be unavailable and instead of picking what's best, they have to pick what's available.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#77

Post by roel_v »

kuschku wrote: post #10
ThePhysicist wrote: post #5

The thing with conventional farming is that a lot of the costs (in terms of environmental damage which needs to be repaired) are currently externalized, i.e. payed for by the society, which indeed makes industrial farming more cost-effective than organic farming, at least for the farmer (though in many countries you can charge a good premium for organic food, which will often outweigh your additional cost). The same…

And there is a huge unspoken problem yet. In many areas of northern Germany, even with the extremely strict limits on fertilizer and pesticides that Germany has, the drinking water, rivers and oceans are getting so massively polluted that we’re seeing massive algae blooms and drinking water slowly becoming undrinkable. It’s a massive problem, and there’s no way to solve these without massively reducing fertilizer and…

Actually, no. While there is variability in ground- and surface water pollution across Europe, and safe levels are exceeded in some places, the overall trend is stable. See pretty much all reporting on this by e.g. the EEA, Eurostat, DG Agri/Env, etc.

First, one can say that these 'official' bodies are just in the pocket of 'big Ag' and can't be trusted etc. - it's a common trope, but there is no proof and also (although of course this doesn't count for anything in the larger context) contrary to by experience.

Secondly, just because things are 'stable', doesn't mean they're 'great' or even 'good'. There is obviously much work left, and despite many people's hate on the EU, things like the Nitrate Directive and others like it there are clear frameworks in place and things are looking up. Again, I'm not saying 'all OK, let's go home'; but factless scare mongering like 'massively polluted', 'need massively reducing fertilizer and pesticide use' etc. is counterproductive. I'm not even sure what you're implying - population restrictions? Rebirth of Malthusianism?

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#78

Post by KaiserPro »

snovv_crash wrote: post #3

One thing I don't see him cover is how to deal with the "ecosystem" which will form around, and eventually consume, a fully organic permaculture farm. One of the big advantages of monoculture is that you usually only need to protect against a single class of pests in a specific area.

I'd suggest you try it your self.

try growing stuff on a city balcony. assuming sun and water, it'll grow really well, due to the urban heat island.

However when you get pests, thats it, game over. you've got black fly, and they are never going away(I tried sprays, buying ladybirds, nematoads)

Why? because you only have one tiny portion of the ecosystem that is based on pests. Most pests are way down the food pyramid.

Now, I moved to an allotment, with a huge range of crops, which has a huge range of pest and predators. I had black fly for a week, and then the ladybirds came.

Why? because pests are seasonal, you need broad range of pests to keep the predators in any useful numbers.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#79

Post by cmdrfred »

ansible wrote: post #73
7sigma wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's because they're optimised to withstand heavy pesticide use" Actually, GMOs need less pesticides than non GMO crop. Some of them produce their own pesticide (BT corn and BT cotton). "Pesticides are bad." Thats kind of the point, they are bad to pests that try to eat the crop "GMO are generally sterile" You are confusing GMO with hybrids and no they are not sterile, the just lose vigour after a few generations, s…

Thats kind of the point, they are bad to pests that try to eat the crop And pesticides are also bad for other insects that don't eat the crops, and are necessary for our ecosystem to function. And pesticides are bad for people and animals in the longer term too.

>And pesticides are bad for people and animals in the longer term too.

Can you source that claim?

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#80

Post by latch »

bad_user wrote: post #65
avar wrote: post #17

Organic isn't the answer, it's trying to address some legitimate concerns, but it's a movement full of scientific woo-woo that's been legislated. For instance, organic farming thinks GMO's are bad, but is just fine with irradiating large fields full of plants to accomplish random mutations through radiation breeding. This article is one example of this, the author decries traditional corn fields, and as a counterexam…

The current definition of what "organic farming" is has been obviously corrupted by the current farming industry. In the end it's just a label. But the question remains: how can we do sustainable farming, without polluting the soil and the water and without poisoning humans? If we can't find a way to make that work, then we are all heading towards an apocalypse, because what we are doing currently isn't sustainable.…

Reducing the consumption of meat seems like a step in the right direction. It's a huge drain on water, land, energy and calories. At the very least, people should be paying for the real cost. Taking it further, instead of subsidizing these industries, I wouldn't mind seeing a beef-tax.
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