A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France • Hacker News Board

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#621

Post by quickConclusion » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:49 AM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #209

LunaSea wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would still pick Berlin or Amsterdam over France. Maybe even Sweden or Finland because of the average English language level spoken in those countries even though the startup scene there is smaller than Paris.

Plus employee welfare in France is ridiculous, ultimately harmful to their economy..

Even if what you said was true, what would be the point of a strong economy if people cannot have healthcare? I'd rather have a less strong economy and better health for everyone.

Not surprisingly, it helps the economy: people dont lose their savings, jobs and houses when they get sick in Europe.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#622

Post by mdup » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:50 AM UTC

hluska wrote: post #611

user5994461 wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In accounting terms, your pay is calculated as hourly rate * time working. It's averaged over the year and paid monthly. All the holidays are time not working over the year. So, yes, it is definitely lowering your pay.

Pardon my ignorance, but may I ask a question? The GP mentioned 5 weeks vacation + public holidays. To make my example easier, let's say that I worked in France and decided to take the month of July off (using the 5 weeks vacation). Would I get paid for that vacation? Or is the 5 weeks vacation unpaid?? In Canada, my vacation is paid, so if I take an entire month off, I collect my pay cheques as usual.

In your example, your month of July would be paid. You're out of work the whole month yet your payslip is the same as any other month.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#623

Post by WildUtah » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:52 AM UTC

dvdhnt wrote: post #247

matthewking wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also from the UK and I have the upmost respect for anyone that can speak a second language. I find it incredibly difficult to get beyond a base vocabulary to actually being able to use the language without sounding like a cave man. I assume there'll be a "click" moment somewhere but its hard work getting there.

Funny, I'm from the US and find it difficult to understand some of the accents from both North-Eastern Americans (ayy Boston) and some of the UK folks I've met (when they write exactly how they speak).

I'm a native English speaker with the world's most broadcast accent (the main Hollywood movie accent) and I'm a fan of Sherlock and Doctor Who. Those programs are produced with the most well known UK accents.

And yet I still have to rewind a few times in every episode for dialogue that I just can't decypher. Sometimes I never quite get the words.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#624

Post by jasonlotito » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:54 AM UTC

mfo wrote: post #379

jasonlotito wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To continue with the healthcare argument, "top-notch healthcare" is debatable. Autism support in France is not good at all. People always like to think of healthcare as a single entity, a single package. Either it's good or it's bad as a whole. The truth is, it's not.

Autism in France is addressed ; autists kids have special classes in public schools (with non autist kids, so they share free time, lunch etc...., this kinds of system is aka as IME). Also those kids are mixed with non-autist kids during classes (a few hours a week). All in all, the system try it's hardest to make them feel normal (IMO). What would you expect from a society dealings with disabled (nothing bad) ?

Some kids. I believe the number is something like 1/5th the kids get the support they need.

Yep, did a bit of searching.

http://www.euronews.com/2016/03/30/children-losing-out-as-fr...

Nothing has changed since I last looked when I was living in Quebec.

> What would you expect from a society dealings with disabled (nothing bad) ?

What do I expect, or what do I hope? I expect that people assume that because they hospital visit for a broken leg is "free" and "good", that it carries over to autistic support, and that any suggestion otherwise is absurd and alarmist. This is usually the case.

I'd hope that they take the concerns from parents seriously and not be dismissive, even if it means they have to admit there are flaws in the system.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#625

Post by Pyxl101 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:54 AM UTC

maverick_iceman wrote: post #614

prefect42 wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you that salary number from, American tech salary of 200k/yr?

In Silicon Valley, 200K is a pretty normal salary, I'd say it's actually on the lower end for mid career people.

$200K would be a high salary, meaning a fixed cash payment someone receives on a periodic basis (with $200K being the yearly sum). However, as the value of total compensation, meaning cash salary plus stock plans, retirement plans, the value of healthcare insurance, expected bonuses, etc., then yes I agree it's pretty normal. Indeed, the starting total compensation of college graduates at top tech companies like AmaGooBookSoft is apparently around $175K (see web search results for "What is the salary for graduates starting at ?").

One Quora article claims that the average compensation of tech employees at these companies is above $200K. This is partly why areas that employ many tech workers are facing housing price crises: after covering their costs of living, the surplus compensation often goes into housing. Since housing is seen as "safe" and as a form of investment, it can soak up considerable amounts of surplus income, and since there's only so much of it in a given area, the competition for housing is intense.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#626

Post by wwweston » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:55 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #588

renaudg wrote: post #425

Regarding French salaries again : yes they are lower than elsewhere but with some exceptions, French employers are not the problem : they do pay the same price for you as in other European countries, more or less ! The difference is that your average engineer in France costs them around 1.5-2.5 times the total take home pay, because of high, compulsory labor taxes. In exchange, employees get as standard : * a top not…

I love how people trot out universal healthcare or pensions as a reason to ignore that European salaries are so much lower. With an American tech salary of $200k/yr, I can pay for all of that (health insurance, student loans, etc.) and still sock away $100k/yr in savings. That $100k is more than enough to build up a massive nest egg which will provide for me better than any pension or unemployment insurance would. If…

> With an American tech salary of $200k/yr, I can pay for all of that (health insurance

Even if you can pay for it, doesn't mean you can get it. Pre-ACA, I knew people who had the levels of income you're talking about (and higher) who couldn't buy health insurance on their own at any price.

Some of them could get insurance through employer groups, assuming they didn't want to retire, assuming a given employer wanted to hire them, and assuming a given employer wanted them in a given risk pool. What they couldn't do was buy insurance on the individual market.

We're apparently about to return to those days.

See:

   http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/opinion/20Dubinsky.html

   http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/2012/03/pre_existing_conditions_the_real_reason_insurers_won_t_cover_people_who_are_already_sick_.html

I'm also not anxious to take giant salary cuts, but there are times as I get older that the logic of establishing a floor even if it means lowering the ceiling seems to make more sense.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#627

Post by morgante » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:55 AM UTC

mhlakhani wrote: post #616

morgante wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how people trot out universal healthcare or pensions as a reason to ignore that European salaries are so much lower. With an American tech salary of $200k/yr, I can pay for all of that (health insurance, student loans, etc.) and still sock away $100k/yr in savings. That $100k is more than enough to build up a massive nest egg which will provide for me better than any pension or unemployment insurance would. If…

> With an American tech salary of $200k/yr, I can pay for all of that (health insurance, student loans, etc.) and still sock away $100k/yr in savings. Are you sure you're counting it as 200k and not a higher number? With taxes in the bay area, at least 70k of that is gone and surviving on 30k/year is kind of tough if you want to save a full 100k.

> Are you sure you're counting it as 200k and not a higher number?

Yes, I'm quite sure. This is based on my personal life. The trick is to do your saving it tax-advantage accounts and to take any deductions you can.

Still, the taxes are the primary reason I'm not based in SV.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#628

Post by morgante » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:57 AM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #625

maverick_iceman wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Silicon Valley, 200K is a pretty normal salary, I'd say it's actually on the lower end for mid career people.

$200K would be a high salary , meaning a fixed cash payment someone receives on a periodic basis (with $200K being the yearly sum). However, as the value of total compensation , meaning cash salary plus stock plans, retirement plans, the value of healthcare insurance, expected bonuses, etc., then yes I agree it's pretty normal. Indeed, the starting total compensation of college graduates at top tech companies like Am…

I'd say $200k is very typical (if not on the low end) of salary + stock for big companies. Not including other things like insurance or retirement plans which are hard to attach a quantifiable dollar amount to.

In terms of straight dollars, you can easily earn $200k+/yr doing contracting.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#629

Post by netman21 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 3:02 AM UTC

Surprised that the comments here are from the perspective of an employee considering moving to France when the purpose of the visa is to attract founders. Try founding a tech company when you are paying all those employment taxes for everyone you hire. And then they are only allowed to work 35 hours a week. I helped a startup during the dot com boom in Paris. They said the "employment police" would stake out their building to ensure nobody worked too long. And good luck holding on to anything if you sell. Sorry France. Nice try.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#630

Post by morgante » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 3:02 AM UTC

wwweston wrote: post #626

morgante wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how people trot out universal healthcare or pensions as a reason to ignore that European salaries are so much lower. With an American tech salary of $200k/yr, I can pay for all of that (health insurance, student loans, etc.) and still sock away $100k/yr in savings. That $100k is more than enough to build up a massive nest egg which will provide for me better than any pension or unemployment insurance would. If…

> With an American tech salary of $200k/yr, I can pay for all of that (health insurance Even if you can pay for it, doesn't mean you can get it. Pre-ACA, I knew people who had the levels of income you're talking about (and higher ) who couldn't buy health insurance on their own at any price. Some of them could get insurance through employer groups, assuming they didn't want to retire, assuming a given employer wanted…

Sure, it was a lot worse pre-ACA. Thankfully, it's quite easy to purchase individual insurance these days (I pay $160/m for mine). We'll see what happens with the Republicans.

More importantly, health insurances do not at all sufficiently explain the differences in salaries. Google will hire you here and give you great health insurance, even though they're also paying very well.

Also, the notion that it requires really high taxes to implement single payer is simply not true. Singapore, for example, has a robust public health system while also having some of the lowest taxes in the world. After all, companies are already paying for insurance here. If we socialized it, I wouldn't expect tech salaries to drop.