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China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

economist.com

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Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#61

Post by arethuza »

crdoconnor wrote: post #59
claudius wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road-building is also not profitable unless you capture the increase in land value around roads. Curiously, most people are okay with tax-funded roads and streets but strongly oppose spending public funds on trains. Of course, ideally both would be run exactly at cost via user fees (i.e. train tickets, tolls etc.), but this is not an often-shared opinion.

>Curiously, most people are okay with tax-funded roads and streets but strongly oppose spending public funds on trains. Actually the public is strongly in favor of spending public funds on trains, but the British oligarchy (reflected by the media's default opinion - which some people confuse for the public's), is vehemently against it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11867259/What-J... Note the Telegraph…

"the Telegraph accusing the general public of being communists"

Isn't that a fairly succinct summary of the Telegraph's political stance on pretty much everything?

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#62

Post by transfire »

What a pathetic Debbie Downer article -- quintessential modern America. Most of the article just keeps beating the cost drum -- trains don't generate enough ticket revenue to cover their cost. Meanwhile the U.S. taxpayer givers $41.0 billion a year to the Federal Highway Administration, and most roads don't generate a single dime of revenue.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#63

Post by jsudhams »

Not sure all countries have to follow this, china must have done this to compensate the growth hence the infra projects with in countries help. I think other countries rather than spending money on this can develop meaning full telecom infrastructure to villages (connecting all of them) and ensure population is spread out and people continue to there where they are than flocking to cities.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#64

Post by idm »

Rezo wrote: post #35

Saw this amazing photo of Chinese high-speed trains just the other day: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-he... Now that's some serious infrastructure investment!

Wow. I can hardly believe what I'm looking at. We're so used to seeing one "bullet train" at a time, and even that is held as a lofty aspiration. Some day, maybe, my country might have one too.

That Chinese train yard picture is so serious. Once upon a time, the Dow Jones industrial average was a composite metric designed to roughly characterize the rail industry, including steel production, machining and manufacture, real estate, and use. The health of that industry was found to be predictive of the health of the entire country, and although the DJIA shifted from rail, it is still predictive of nationwide economic health.

China, in my eyes, just proved how far ahead they are - and my jaw is on the floor. Those trains represent so much. It's not merely that they exist - and all of the economic activity inherent in making them exist - but now that they exist, they are an engine of productivity. All the people who can move now...

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#65

Post by pm90 »

jerf wrote: post #55
pm90 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think British society in Victorian times had the same level of education and basic income/living standards as they do today (my perspective is mostly from Dickens' writing though; I haven't done much research into this area personally).

"Progress" is generally considered to be the first derivative of societal wealth, not the zeroth, and generally measured logarithmically rather than linearly. So, basically, "percentage annual increase in GDP" (or other similar measure, ignoring the questionability of any one of them for now). I don't have proof as to which of modern China and Victorian England is progressing more quickly, but the claim at least pass…

I'm having a hard time understanding this comment. Are you saying that GDP growth of Victorian Britain == GDP growth of present China? If so, that is not the point I'm making at all. Income inequality is what I'm more concerned with: you can have spectacular economic growth and the gains can still be restricted to a small percentage of the population.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#66

Post by arethuza »

aminok wrote: post #43
mseebach wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am left with a feeling of awe at China's development, and frustration at the UK's stagnancy. While the UK does feel particularly stagnated on several fronts, I'm not sure abandoning the rule of law, protection of private property, labour protections, at least an attempt at the appearance of corruption-free tenders, high safety standards and the principle that people who are affected should be consulted is worthy…

> I'm not sure abandoning the rule of law, protection of private property, labour protections, at least an attempt at the appearance of corruption-free tenders, high safety standards and the principle that people who are affected should be consulted is worthy of much awe. Two points: 1. The income tax that pays for the UK's lavish welfare system violates private property (and privacy) rights on a massive scale. It ju…

I always wonder if people who regard safety standards as a terrible imposition by "a small body of bureaucrats" have any experience of work environments that don't just consist of meetings and sitting in front of a computer?

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#68

Post by Symmetry »

010001001010 wrote: post #54

"High-speed rail (HSR) is best suited for journeys of 1 to 4½ hours (about 150–900 km or 93–559 mi)" https://www.travelstatsman.com/08082016/high-speed-rail-trai... ... perfectly suited to link China's smaller cities, but not direct connections to it's major cities. Maybe driven more by environmental reasons (arguably fewer emissions than plane travel) rather than economic reasons (besides job creation, etc).

For even half full inter-city trains I don't think there's any doubt about which is more energy efficient. Trains will tend to win by about an order of magnitude. Planes aren't any worse than cars containing a single person, though.

https://www.withouthotair.com/c20/page_128.shtml

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#69

Post by vkou »

wyuenho wrote: post #20
bainsfather wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a valid point. And there is always a tendency to see the good points in other countries and the bad points in your own. In this case (and also in e.g. building new power stations, new housing, widening roads, expanding London's airports, etc) the contrast is so stark. For sure the UK needn't abandon rule of law in order to build infrastructure in a timely manner.

Yes you do. If the rail goes across any freehold, you'll have to negotiate and compensate for the owners loses. This process takes years if not decades. The only reason China is able to build so quickly is because the government tramples on people rights (does private ownership of real estate exist in China?) like there's no tomorrow. I attended a seminar in UCL a few months ago where the panelist shared the number o…

> Yes you do. If the rail goes across any freehold, you'll have to negotiate and compensate for the owners loses. This process takes years if not decades. The only reason China is able to build so quickly is because the government tramples on people rights (does private ownership of real estate exist in China?) like there's no tomorrow.

How is this different from, say, oil pipelines in the United States? They are constantly trampling on the rights of (Usually indigenous) people living in the area - and you currently have a Congress, a Senate, and a President that have all made it very clear what side they are on in this battle.

The primary difference to me is that China seems to consider train transportation infrastructure to be critical to its economic development - whereas the United States considers that to be the case for private oil extraction.

At least high-speed train spills are far less likely to cause long-term ecosystem damage then bitumen.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#70

Post by [deleted] »

bainsfather wrote: post #2

"Less than a decade ago China had yet to connect any of its cities by bullet train. Today, it has 20,000km (12,500 miles) of high-speed rail lines, more than the rest of the world combined. It is planning to lay another 15,000km by 2025" The contrast to the UK, where we might someday build the HS2 line London-Birmingham-Manchester, is massive. I am left with a feeling of awe at China's development, and frustration at…

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