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The importance of neutral null for understanding evolution

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

11–20 of 34 posts

Re: The importance of neutral null for understanding evolution

#11
post #10
post #5

" And the proper null hypothesis posits that it is a result of neutral evolution: that is, it survives by sheer chance provided that it is not deleterious enough to be efficiently purged by purifying selection. " This is news? And I claim precedence on the phrase "just so story" for those things biologists have been spouting for decades.

Yes, but it is a nuance in a specialized field, so it might seem "obvious" to outsiders. The article does give the background here - there are multiple positions within evolutionary biology. All accept natural selection, of course, but the fine details matter too. In particular here the question is a decades long debate that Gould&Lewontin headed, saying that not all apparently-useful adaptations evolved, some are "s…

Okay, but the article is mostly not about adaptations or phenotypes, it's about evolution in its broadest sense: changes in the sequences of genomes. Most of these changes have no effect on phenotype; others have effects which may not be adaptive.

Junk DNA is real, although it also serves as a broad canvas on which selection can subsequently act. Pervasive transcription doesn't mean pervasive genomic adaptation.

A significant number (perhaps even a majority) of biologists seem to hold views akin to a naive adaptationist outlook, which demonstrably leads them astray in their interpretation of data. The proportion of the educated public holding these views is even higher. Richard Dawkins has a lot to answer for.

Above all, a simplistic adaptationist view of evolution is not only inaccurate, ignoring the last half-century of developments in the field of population genetics, but also misses a lot of the (often subtle) detail that makes evolutionary biology so interesting.

Re: The importance of neutral null for understanding evolution

#12
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Reading too deeply into things that have simpler explanations" is a hallmark of Kabbalah, which it sounds like the op has read into. Also, acid trips.

I haven't studied Kabbalah, nor have I tripped on acid. I studied folk Christian mysticism, as passed to me from my grandfather (oral tradition). I also used the internet and other resources to dig into the language and history.

You may find both interesting! And I hope that my comment didn't/doesn't seem accusatory, I'm coming from a similar spiritual standpoint myself.

Re: The importance of neutral null for understanding evolution

#14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it is a nuance in a specialized field, so it might seem "obvious" to outsiders. The article does give the background here - there are multiple positions within evolutionary biology. All accept natural selection, of course, but the fine details matter too. In particular here the question is a decades long debate that Gould&Lewontin headed, saying that not all apparently-useful adaptations evolved, some are "s…

Okay, but the article is mostly not about adaptations or phenotypes, it's about evolution in its broadest sense: changes in the sequences of genomes. Most of these changes have no effect on phenotype; others have effects which may not be adaptive. Junk DNA is real, although it also serves as a broad canvas on which selection can subsequently act. Pervasive transcription doesn't mean pervasive genomic adaptation. A si…

In this talk touches upon an interesting hypothesis that the purpose of junk DNA might be evolvability: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcD_L6_iBLU

The idea is basically that junk DNA contains a memory in shape of a distributed representation of the past of the organism and its environment, akin to how neural networks encode information. It basically provides a basis for fast adaptability by introducing noise into the gene expression and morphogenesis process so as to have more versatility and robustness to explore alternatives (very similar to dropout in neural networks).

Re: The importance of neutral null for understanding evolution

#15

Evolutionary theory is uncannily similar to the Hebrew tetragrammaton, which is often translated into English as "I am that I am". But digging in, you will find that it is the verb "to be" in both perfect (now) and imperfect (past/future) tenses. It means something like "That which is now in a way consistent with that which has been and will be". To me, that's evolution. This is a reconciliation of philosophy and spi…

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that evolution is a tautological collapse of the "why" in "why do we exist".

Let me explain: evolution is a massive, groping search in the ultrahigh dimensional space of possible organisms, one that is solving for fitness by literally obliterating less fit entities from existence. So fitness is actually just "what is good at existing", which, given enough iterations, will determine what actually exists anyway.

So now we can simply substitute in the answer to the question "why do we exist?": We exist because we evolved, which is like saying, we exist because we are fit, which is like saying, we exist because we exist. And that explanational ouroboros sort of levitates before us, a silent, immutable feature of the universe: we are here because we exist, because we exist, because...

And it's so easy for us to make that small, seductive step to saying that our existence is therefore inevitable. But I think that's a mistake. The tautology doesn't answer the why question; it annihilates it, dissolving the teleological question into its mechanistic refutation: WE. ARE. HERE.

Re: The importance of neutral null for understanding evolution

#16
post #5

" And the proper null hypothesis posits that it is a result of neutral evolution: that is, it survives by sheer chance provided that it is not deleterious enough to be efficiently purged by purifying selection. " This is news? And I claim precedence on the phrase "just so story" for those things biologists have been spouting for decades.

"Just So Story" has been used frequently in debates within evolutionary biology and other areas of scientific debate. There's even a Wikipedia page about this usage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-so_story

Re: The importance of neutral null for understanding evolution

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but the article is mostly not about adaptations or phenotypes, it's about evolution in its broadest sense: changes in the sequences of genomes. Most of these changes have no effect on phenotype; others have effects which may not be adaptive. Junk DNA is real, although it also serves as a broad canvas on which selection can subsequently act. Pervasive transcription doesn't mean pervasive genomic adaptation. A si…

In this talk touches upon an interesting hypothesis that the purpose of junk DNA might be evolvability : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcD_L6_iBLU The idea is basically that junk DNA contains a memory in shape of a distributed representation of the past of the organism and its environment, akin to how neural networks encode information. It basically provides a basis for fast adaptability by introducing noise into t…

You're looking for purpose, but as the article states at the outset, don't ask 'what is this for'; ask 'how has this sequence evolved?'.

90% of our genome is unconserved, meaning that it is not under selection. Most of this consists of dead viruses and mobile elements. Such DNA was present for its own purposes while it was active but is long since dead. A tiny proportion of this junk is later co-opted by the host organism.

The null hypothesis is that junk DNA is junk. It survives in the genomes of species with small effective population size because its selection coefficient is too small for it to be purged.

The alternative hypothesis you gave would need evidence to support it, otherwise it's another 'just so' story. Ask yourself, if this junk is beneficial for adaptation as you hypothesize, why don't bacteria have any? More broadly, why is the amount of junk DNA indirectly proportional to the effective population size (as the null hypothesis predicts)?

Re: The importance of neutral null for understanding evolution

#20

Then how can we account for butterflies that mimic wing coloration Of toxic counterparts to ward off birds.Evolution is not blind, we just have not figured out the feedback mechanism yet, most likely its some kind of genetic memory.

$living_thing with $property (wing coloration) isn't dead before reproduction happens, $property may be kept in the offsprings.

$living_thing with $property (wing coloration) is dead before reproduction happens, $property may not be transmitted to the offsprings.

It's a simple enough concept at its core. Then comes the complications of mutations, random this and that.

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