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Philosophy vs. ethics

the-tls.co.uk

11–20 of 35 posts

Re: Philosophy vs. ethics

#11
post #10
post #2

So the TLS's answer to the categorical imperative is "be as good as you can be I guess. . ." That has the same problems that they find in utilitarianism, only even more so. It is even more vague and even less calculable than they claim utalitarianism is. How good is a person capable of being? How do we find out how good an individual is capable of being? Are psychopaths given special allowances? What about people wit…

No, the authors seem to suggest, "be as good as the average person can be": " He excludes from the scope of ethical obligation not just the literally impossible, but also anything that is merely beyond the abilities of the normal person. Ethics cannot tell us to do what would require the impartiality of saints or the foresight of seers. " Superman is not ethically required to save the world from the giant meteor beca…

Your notion would also extend to saying "Superman is not ethnically required to not punch hole through that building killing everyone inside, it because the average person cannot punch that hard".

It's is as if the claim is someone shouldn't avoid doing harm that their above average abilities offer them?

The authors seems to be saying something dissimilar to that: people should't not be require to do more than average person, even if they have the capability to do so.

Programmers shouldn't be required to perform code for charity for their friends and family. Doctors shouldn't be required to save lifes.

Re: Philosophy vs. ethics

#12
Ethics is a slippery slippery subject. Why? Everybody has a personal ethical, or perhaps two stances.

Many possible stances are combinations of three basic sorts of ethics.

Deontological. Follow the laws handed to us. Don't kill, don't steal, don't force people to incriminate themselves.

Utilitarian. Choose a path that yields the greatest good.

"Responsible". Choose a path that yields the greatest good, but excluding one's own welfare. "Nobody has greater love than to lay down his own life for his friends'" We make heroes of people who act on this stance.

When an abstract situation presents itself, most people I know go for the utilitarian stance. How can I drive the bus with the failed brakes to kill the fewest people? Fine. Big whoop.

But, when presented with a real situation, people gravitate to their deeper stances. "Dad's not going to regain consciousness. Should we ask the hospital to shut off the respirator?"

The deontological stance often says, "NO WAY! DAD DESERVES THE BEST CHANCE." In Judeochristian terms, this is translated "choose life."

The utilitarian stance might say, "that respirator is expensive. Could those resources be spent curing someone with a long life ahead of them?" Health insurance companies are 100% utilitarian, and that often comes across as offensively callous. It's not, really. It's just an ethical stance among many.

The "responsible" stance recognizes Dad's agency. It might try to ask what course of action is kindest to Dad, even if it's frightening to his children.

Obviously there are lots of nuances in these real situations. No actual situation comes out like a case study. In the work of practical ethics, it's important to work with people to help them discover and express their own deep ethical stances.

I said people have two stances, because peoples' stated, intellectual, stance is often not quite the same as their deeply held, operational, practical, stance. Both levels count, because people use their intellectual stances to unpack and grapple with their deep stances. That unpacking is some of the hardest work each of us will do in our lifetimes.

Is this all postmodernist relativist claptrap? Is it all age-of-uncertainty hogwash that ignores core human values? To many who hold strong deontological stances, the answer is yes. Can it justify genocide? Certainly not, because genocide necessarily denies the agency -- the ability to act upon their own stances -- of an entire group of people.

The philosophers of ethics do well when they help us tell the stories of our own stances in ways that help us do the hard work of confronting our own deep ethical stances when circumstances force us to do so.

Re: Philosophy vs. ethics

#13
post #10
post #2

So the TLS's answer to the categorical imperative is "be as good as you can be I guess. . ." That has the same problems that they find in utilitarianism, only even more so. It is even more vague and even less calculable than they claim utalitarianism is. How good is a person capable of being? How do we find out how good an individual is capable of being? Are psychopaths given special allowances? What about people wit…

No, the authors seem to suggest, "be as good as the average person can be": " He excludes from the scope of ethical obligation not just the literally impossible, but also anything that is merely beyond the abilities of the normal person. Ethics cannot tell us to do what would require the impartiality of saints or the foresight of seers. " Superman is not ethically required to save the world from the giant meteor beca…

[deleted]

Re: Philosophy vs. ethics

#14

It seems to me the author incorrectly assumes morality is the same as ethics. Morality is more individualistic whereas ethics are externally imposed rules from which one may derive their morality. A Biblical absolutist for instance uses the ethics of the Bible as a foundation for their moral code, but that still does not determine that one will lead to the other. As a society it may indeed behoove us to follow an eth…

In ethical theory/moral philosophy, ethics and morality are the same thing. Both are concerned chiefly with two questions: what we ought to do given what is (unless you're Hume), and whether what has been done is good (or just, or right).

Re: Philosophy vs. ethics

#15

It seems to me the author incorrectly assumes morality is the same as ethics. Morality is more individualistic whereas ethics are externally imposed rules from which one may derive their morality. A Biblical absolutist for instance uses the ethics of the Bible as a foundation for their moral code, but that still does not determine that one will lead to the other. As a society it may indeed behoove us to follow an eth…

In ethical theory/moral philosophy, ethics and morality are the same thing. Both are concerned chiefly with two questions: what we ought to do given what is (unless you're Hume), and whether what has been done is good (or just, or right).

The old joke is that morality is about sex, and ethics is about money.

Re: Philosophy vs. ethics

#16

It seems to me the author incorrectly assumes morality is the same as ethics. Morality is more individualistic whereas ethics are externally imposed rules from which one may derive their morality. A Biblical absolutist for instance uses the ethics of the Bible as a foundation for their moral code, but that still does not determine that one will lead to the other. As a society it may indeed behoove us to follow an eth…

In ethical theory/moral philosophy, ethics and morality are the same thing. Both are concerned chiefly with two questions: what we ought to do given what is (unless you're Hume), and whether what has been done is good (or just, or right).

I'd be honestly interested to know why you believe they are considered the same in the field of ethical philosophy. Throughout my education toward a degree in philosophy I was consistently taught they were very different. One cannot confuse the terms in the study therein because of cause and effect: ethics is the cause that leads to morals.

Re: Philosophy vs. ethics

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if not knowledge then upon what is it based? Instinct? If so, then society would crumble into loose animalistic structures. Law? Then, to appeal to Hitler once more, would you still shelter a Jew against the ethics of the law? External supernatural force? We are then met with the old questions of "which one" along with the problem of interpretation (do we take Levitical restrictions on beard trimming literally, f…

> But if not knowledge then upon what is it based? Instinct? If so, then society would crumble into loose animalistic structures. Law? Then, to appeal to Hitler once more, would you still shelter a Jew against the ethics of the law? Thats actually why I argue objectivism as being aligning better with what's possible within the field of ethics. The whole idea is you can only morally do what you want, without intential…

Yes, but objectivism suffers from decay on its own fringes as well. An objectivist can both be personally against gay marriage, for example, while publicly decrying any law against it because that would "infringe upon freedom." In that case it becomes more of a good law making structure rather than a valid ethical system since the individual's morality is compromised at the expense of society's ethics.

Re: Philosophy vs. ethics

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In ethical theory/moral philosophy, ethics and morality are the same thing. Both are concerned chiefly with two questions: what we ought to do given what is (unless you're Hume), and whether what has been done is good (or just, or right).

I'd be honestly interested to know why you believe they are considered the same in the field of ethical philosophy. Throughout my education toward a degree in philosophy I was consistently taught they were very different. One cannot confuse the terms in the study therein because of cause and effect: ethics is the cause that leads to morals.

That's funny. I'm currently pursuing a degree in philosophy, and I was consistently taught that they were the same. Most of my professors used them interchangeably, with a slight preference for "ethics" when discussing theory.

I realize that my previous comment made it sound like I'm an authority on the subject (I'm most definitely not), so please forgive me for being so brusque in dismissing an alternative definition.

Re: Philosophy vs. ethics

#19

Philosophical discussion of ethics often seems to assume that we can take up some point outside it, and erect or discover a set of ideas that will build it up from nothing, and persuade all who are unethical. Actually almost all of us are always already operating within an elaborate set of ethical beliefs, and there is no way we can escape believing them. What we instead do is try to improve them. It is somewhat like…

> Philosophers often think they can construct a set of arguments that will persuade sociopaths to become moral people

Do you have an example or two of this? (I bet you don't)

Re: Philosophy vs. ethics

#20

Ethics is a slippery slippery subject. Why? Everybody has a personal ethical, or perhaps two stances. Many possible stances are combinations of three basic sorts of ethics. Deontological. Follow the laws handed to us. Don't kill, don't steal, don't force people to incriminate themselves. Utilitarian. Choose a path that yields the greatest good. "Responsible". Choose a path that yields the greatest good, but excluding…

Can it justify genocide? Certainly not, because genocide necessarily...

I would venture that every single Current Era genocide has been deontological.

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