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Is Europe Disintegrating?

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Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#141

Post by dkb »

rbanffy wrote: post #127
kuschku wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't have short-term, mass migration Well, luckily, we don’t have that, eh? In the 90s and 2000s, Western Europe took over a million refugees from the balkans – by 2005, all of them were deported back. There was no wave of nationalism back then, no political change. Even today, in Germany, most are in favor of the current refugee policy. I don’t see why any of what you said has to happen. It hasn’t happened th…

Nationalists didn't have the massive propaganda engines they do today.

That's a little bit easy.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#142

Post by rbanffy »

tehabe wrote: post #50

I really hope this rise of Nationalism is just a phase. If not it won't end well for Europe and the world.

Last time the body count was 25 million, right?

I'm afraid we got much better at increasing body counts recently.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#143

Post by rbanffy »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #2

Based on my recent experience of visiting Europe - yes, it is. I stayed mostly in France, was there during the Brexit vote, and everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU, voting right-wing, and seeing it all crumble. They also have several separatist movements, especially in Brittany, which seems to be more anti-EU than anti-French...

I'm sorry for your experiences. Here in Ireland people seem to be very favorable to the EU. At the office we tender to call Brexit by more descriptive names such as Bruckup or Brusterfuck.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#144

Post by alphonsegaston »

dogma1138 wrote: post #137
alphonsegaston wrote: post #73

Europe is learning the same thing that the United States did in its early days: it's impossible for a union of disparate states to survive without strong, overarching federal authority. It's as unpalatable to member states now as it was to the original colonies, but the alternative is to be subsumed by some outside, more centrally organized power. The Russians understand this, which is why they work to encourage nati…

The problem is that the EU was founded on the principle of never superseding national sovereignty or identity.

The US was founded on similar principles with regard to its states and had to revise its entire political system just thirteen years into its existence. When faced with various existential threats throughout its history, the US has always renegotiated these terms towards more centralized federal power. Europe faces a similar challenge now, and will either peacefully arrive at more centralized political authority, or dissolve and watch its former members be subsequently swallowed up by some larger outside power.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#145

Post by dkb »

muninn_ wrote: post #7

You can't have short-term, mass migration without having something happen or change. We will see a huge change in European political landscape within the next few years. People have to slowly assimilate into a culture in order to allow for a gradual, peaceful change in that culture. Shocking these types of systems with any sort of migration is a recipient for instability. Please keep in mind that this isn't any sort…

I find it funny that the top comment in regards to the question "Is Europe Disintegrating?", is all about immigration.

I know you don't mean anything bad about it, as you have mentioned. I am simply pointing the fact that this comment, that is strictly related to immigration, is the one that is the most up voted.

To me, it shows that people see immigration as the biggest problem of Europe, or at least the most discussed.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#146

Post by rbanffy »

akjainaj wrote: post #6
Mikeb85 wrote: post #2

Based on my recent experience of visiting Europe - yes, it is. I stayed mostly in France, was there during the Brexit vote, and everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU, voting right-wing, and seeing it all crumble. They also have several separatist movements, especially in Brittany, which seems to be more anti-EU than anti-French...

Living in one of the PIGS, I can tell there's not much going on here about leaving the EU. Nobody has seriously brought it up. That said, I see important problems in the EU going on now that must be solved: 1. I know the EU is completely against the "two-speed Europe". But that MUST be put in place if the EU is to survive. There's a clear divide between regions in the EU. It is a cultural divide in the way work is se…

> Many people don't like immigrants.

Too bad they love buying and selling in the common market. Can't have the cake and eat it too.

Edit: but they sure can downvote. Karma is an excellent fuel.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#147

Post by hollerith »

alphonsegaston wrote: post #144
dogma1138 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the EU was founded on the principle of never superseding national sovereignty or identity.

The US was founded on similar principles with regard to its states and had to revise its entire political system just thirteen years into its existence. When faced with various existential threats throughout its history, the US has always renegotiated these terms towards more centralized federal power. Europe faces a similar challenge now, and will either peacefully arrive at more centralized political authority, or…

Do you believe that Britain and France would submit to being swallowed up without using their nukes against whoever is trying to swallow them?

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#148

Post by rbanffy »

dkb wrote: post #136
api wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question: what is the primary grievance against the EU?

It depends from who. A big one, in my opinion, is the loss of power/sovereignty, in the sense that countries of the EU have to follow the European Directives that are made in Bruxelles, and that if they don't, they have to pay huge penalty fees. Another one is that, on a lot of different matters and areas, different countries just cannot obey to the same laws, and their history, language, and way of thinking are just…

I find the need for "sovereignty" funny. It seems that ruling a small place is better than being a part of a much larger thing.

This is too 1930's...

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#149

Post by dkb »

rbanffy wrote: post #148
dkb wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends from who. A big one, in my opinion, is the loss of power/sovereignty, in the sense that countries of the EU have to follow the European Directives that are made in Bruxelles, and that if they don't, they have to pay huge penalty fees. Another one is that, on a lot of different matters and areas, different countries just cannot obey to the same laws, and their history, language, and way of thinking are just…

I find the need for "sovereignty" funny. It seems that ruling a small place is better than being a part of a much larger thing. This is too 1930's...

Some find that being a part of a much larger thing, at the expense of sovereignty, is funny.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#150

Post by dogma1138 »

alphonsegaston wrote: post #144
dogma1138 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the EU was founded on the principle of never superseding national sovereignty or identity.

The US was founded on similar principles with regard to its states and had to revise its entire political system just thirteen years into its existence. When faced with various existential threats throughout its history, the US has always renegotiated these terms towards more centralized federal power. Europe faces a similar challenge now, and will either peacefully arrive at more centralized political authority, or…

You have 2 nuclear powers in Europe, and a few other countries that host nukes under the NATO nuclear arms sharing treaty which gives them discretionary access to said arsenal.

You have NATO and even without a centralized government the European Economic Area and the European Free Trade Association which together form one of the largest economies in the world.

Europe would do just fine if it decides to scale back on the pan-European EU government faculties and just go back to it's let's make trade, not war roots.

And lastly there isn't a single outside power wanting or being capable of swallowing Europe, Russia doesn't have plans to expand westward beyond it's immediate strategic needs (mainly a warm water port), it only cares about security and mobility as well for the EU not to overstep and have NATO on Russia's borders or try to circumvent Russia's economy by taking control of the caspian and near east oil and gas routes.

Trade prevent war, the benefits of a central government beyond that are fairly limited, the Federal government didn't stop the US civil war from happening it might have initiated it, but the US had their civil war and came out stronger, and Europe had it's own share of not so civil wars and also came out stronger in the end.

Currently there about zero chance of war happening in Europe between European powers, whilst there is a lot of Euro-skepticism the worst that may come out of it is bye bye to the European Parliament and a few other institutions. The EEA would still be there, the Council of Europe would still be there and everyone would go their merry way.

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