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Is Europe Disintegrating?

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Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#11

Post by _delirium »

akjainaj wrote: post #6
Mikeb85 wrote: post #2

Based on my recent experience of visiting Europe - yes, it is. I stayed mostly in France, was there during the Brexit vote, and everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU, voting right-wing, and seeing it all crumble. They also have several separatist movements, especially in Brittany, which seems to be more anti-EU than anti-French...

Living in one of the PIGS, I can tell there's not much going on here about leaving the EU. Nobody has seriously brought it up. That said, I see important problems in the EU going on now that must be solved: 1. I know the EU is completely against the "two-speed Europe". But that MUST be put in place if the EU is to survive. There's a clear divide between regions in the EU. It is a cultural divide in the way work is se…

I think #2 varies widely within the EU. Immigration from outside the EU (especially Muslim immigration) is a hot-button issue everywhere, but intra-EU immigration is a less contentious issue in many countries. In the UK there is a lot of opposition to immigration from eastern Europe in general (and the proverbial "Polish plumber" is a fixture of political debate), but that's not as big a worry in, say, Germany, where people are mostly worried about Syrians and not very concerned about Poles.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#14

Post by api »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #2

Based on my recent experience of visiting Europe - yes, it is. I stayed mostly in France, was there during the Brexit vote, and everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU, voting right-wing, and seeing it all crumble. They also have several separatist movements, especially in Brittany, which seems to be more anti-EU than anti-French...

Question: what is the primary grievance against the EU?

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#15

Post by pound »

akjainaj wrote: post #6
Mikeb85 wrote: post #2

Based on my recent experience of visiting Europe - yes, it is. I stayed mostly in France, was there during the Brexit vote, and everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU, voting right-wing, and seeing it all crumble. They also have several separatist movements, especially in Brittany, which seems to be more anti-EU than anti-French...

Living in one of the PIGS, I can tell there's not much going on here about leaving the EU. Nobody has seriously brought it up. That said, I see important problems in the EU going on now that must be solved: 1. I know the EU is completely against the "two-speed Europe". But that MUST be put in place if the EU is to survive. There's a clear divide between regions in the EU. It is a cultural divide in the way work is se…

for those wondering: PIGS - Portugal, Italy, Greece & Spain (some people jump to comments)

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#16

Post by akjainaj »

_delirium wrote: post #11
akjainaj wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in one of the PIGS, I can tell there's not much going on here about leaving the EU. Nobody has seriously brought it up. That said, I see important problems in the EU going on now that must be solved: 1. I know the EU is completely against the "two-speed Europe". But that MUST be put in place if the EU is to survive. There's a clear divide between regions in the EU. It is a cultural divide in the way work is se…

I think #2 varies widely within the EU. Immigration from outside the EU (especially Muslim immigration) is a hot-button issue everywhere, but intra-EU immigration is a less contentious issue in many countries. In the UK there is a lot of opposition to immigration from eastern Europe in general (and the proverbial "Polish plumber" is a fixture of political debate), but that's not as big a worry in, say, Germany, where…

You are very correct, but it depends on what your country has received.

My country for example received millions of Romanians/Bulgarians back in the day, so that's what people were against. There was a huge construction bubble, and they came en masse, leaving many locals without a job. As soon as the construction bubble popped, they left en masse. They also greatly increased the insecurity here, with really recurrent news about thefts committed by Romanians, pickpockets, etc. News were flooded with those events. So, you can imagine what the locals ended up thinking of them.

Natives wouldn't say anything negative about rest of slavs, Poles, etc because they simply never met them.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#17

Post by bostand »

DrNuke wrote: post #9

European Union is not working because too many different economies are in the eurozone. I was a fervent Pro-EU, now realising a federation of independent countries might work better than a superstate.

EU in its simplest form is harmonization of rules and a bigger market for you to sell your goods. That part works exceptionally well. I don't see a single reason where that could be a negative in a mid to long term.

The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#18

Post by licnep »

sean_patel wrote: post #5

> For now there is crisis and disintegration wherever I look: the eurozone is chronically dysfunctional, sunlit Athens is plunged into misery, young Spaniards with doctorates are reduced to serving as waiters in London or Berlin, the children of Portuguese friends seek work in Brazil and Angola How much truth is there, to this statement i.e. "young Spaniards with PHDs are serving as Waiters in London or Berlin." Anyo…

This is just anecdotal but I know that spanish people have trouble finding jobs and often stay in school longer while living with their parents.

I know two spanish people with a BA, one went au-pairing in france, another one couldn't find a job and moved to morocco cause it was cheaper.

So while it may be exagerated, there's probably some truth to that statement. The euro has destroyed the mediterrean economies.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#19

Post by rhblake »

powertower wrote: post #4

edit: -deleted- this thread has been moved from the front-page, back 5 pages. There is no point making (nor leaving) good arguments in dead threads that no one can see nor take part in.

Erosion of rights, eh? My country, Sweden, doesn't have a constitutional court; possibly because of some strange belief that our politicians can't make bad laws. (The Swedish supreme court cannot strike down laws, only interpret them.) The European Court of Justice is essentially the only thing that's stopping the Swedish government from extending mass surveillance even further.

E.g., in 2014 the court ruled that mass data retention was violating basic human rights, killing the data retention directive. The Swedish government wanted to keep doing this anyway so they interpreted the ruling quite creatively, concluding that the Swedish implementation of the directive wasn't "bad enough", and forced ISPs/telcos to continue with mass data retention. This was challenged by a Swedish telco and right before Christmas the ECJ ruled in the telco's favor -- and then finally Swedish ISPs could (well, had to!) stop this particular form of surveillance.

So, I'm happy to be in the EU, for that reason and many other reasons.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#20

Post by RBerenguel »

sean_patel wrote: post #5

> For now there is crisis and disintegration wherever I look: the eurozone is chronically dysfunctional, sunlit Athens is plunged into misery, young Spaniards with doctorates are reduced to serving as waiters in London or Berlin, the children of Portuguese friends seek work in Brazil and Angola How much truth is there, to this statement i.e. "young Spaniards with PHDs are serving as Waiters in London or Berlin." Anyo…

In my experience, young Spanish PhDs go abroad (indeed, I'm one of those and know plenty, although not sure about my youth by now) to work in a related field. Not to be waiters.
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