Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA • Hacker News Board

Re: Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA

#81

Post by dntrkv » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 5:20 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #63

mtdewcmu wrote: post #12

Can anyone figure out why it's so expensive? Here's a fancier-looking 26" bicycle on walmart.com for $79.97 - $249.00. [1] [1] https://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Roadmaster-Granite-Peak-Men-s-...

I grew up with a slew of craptastic second hand, thrift store and K-Mart level bikes since it was all we could afford (and as I grew, the bikes grew). We used to beat the living snot out of those bikes and I don't remember any of them costing more than $150 new and they either never broke or were easy to repair. I would expect to pay no more than around $300 for a similar quality of bike these days. The last time I w…

"Since when did bikes get so unbelievably expensive?"

Quality bikes have always been expensive. You can still go buy a cheap bike at Walmart as the parent post points out.

"unless you're doing some very very intensive mountain biking or road racing you probably will never encounter a problem with a Walmart-class bike."

Nonsense, riding a quality bike is a much better experience in every single aspect. They're lighter, they have better brakes, shifting is smoother and more consistent, they're more comfortable. You can get the exact size you need instead of a one size fits all approach. Also, one of the most important factors in a bike's reliability is how well it's assembled, and you can be sure that places like Walmart will do a terrible job.

Re: Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA

#82

Post by Unman » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 5:20 PM UTC

dripton wrote: post #65

Unman wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Front brake will flip you over in an instant, I know because I've done it, even at slow speeds That's because you simply do not know how to ride a bicycle. In such a situation you need to get your weight back behind the saddle and modulate the application of the brake. O.P. is one hundred percent correct that you do not need a rear brake -- and I speak as someone that rode for several years in without one including…

You need a rear brake for two reasons. One is redundancy: if the front brake fails, you want another option, even if it's not quite as good. The other is spreading the braking heat over twice as much surface area on long fast descents. (Some tandems have a third brake for that reason.)

The redundancy point is true. The tandem drum brakes are less to do about heat dissipation than stopping your hands cramp up on a long descent. Often you just actuate the rear drum to provide constant drag on a descent.

Re: Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA

#83

Post by emptybits » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #14

Zooming in, the belt says "Conti Drive System" on it. More info on that here: http://www.conti-drive-system.com/ They seem to be competing with the "Gates Carbon Drive", here: http://www.gatescarbondrive.com/ I know nothing of bicycles, but I do recall when automakers started replacing timing chains with timing belts. The results weren't always great, especially with interference engines where misaligned timing means…

I have a pair of friends that are serious tandem riders and they now run their premium touring tandem with Gates Carbon Drive. They switched from chain because, if you didn't know, tandem bikes with strong riders have a reputation for eating chains. (Premature stretch, leading to cog/ring wear, and eventually breakage because of the torque involved.) Belts are stronger than chains in some regards and I think high-torque applications is one of them. Witness Harley-Davidson switching to belts decades ago, away from chains. Also, on a bicycle, a belt system can shed almost a pound versus an equivalent chain-cog-ring-derailleurs setup. While being very quiet and very clean.

Downsides ... unlike an easy chain repair, you can't repair a belt in the very rare case it breaks. So you carry a spare on a tour. There are suggestions that frictional losses are higher with belt versus chain, though. And belts are apparently weaker when twisted or laterally flexed than chains, so storage and initial setup is more critical.

Re: Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA

#84

Post by xapata » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #14

Zooming in, the belt says "Conti Drive System" on it. More info on that here: http://www.conti-drive-system.com/ They seem to be competing with the "Gates Carbon Drive", here: http://www.gatescarbondrive.com/ I know nothing of bicycles, but I do recall when automakers started replacing timing chains with timing belts. The results weren't always great, especially with interference engines where misaligned timing means…

Belts on cars have gone through rounds of engineering improvement and are now better than chains. Perhaps the same has happened to bicycles.

Re: Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA

#85

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #63

mtdewcmu wrote: post #12

Can anyone figure out why it's so expensive? Here's a fancier-looking 26" bicycle on walmart.com for $79.97 - $249.00. [1] [1] https://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Roadmaster-Granite-Peak-Men-s-...

I grew up with a slew of craptastic second hand, thrift store and K-Mart level bikes since it was all we could afford (and as I grew, the bikes grew). We used to beat the living snot out of those bikes and I don't remember any of them costing more than $150 new and they either never broke or were easy to repair. I would expect to pay no more than around $300 for a similar quality of bike these days. The last time I w…

In 1997, I would agree with you 100%. Times have changed, and things get cheaper and more terrible.

I bought a cheapo WalMart bike on vacation when mine was damaged in transit in a minor car accident. I was riding on a bike path, swerved to avoid something and went off a high curb. The impact cracked a frame weld.

It's a weird market. There's a market for cheap stuff that doesn't get used, and outrageous stuff for fanatics. No ,idle ground.

Re: Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA

#86

Post by woodruffw » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

cbr wrote: post #46

woodruffw wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walmart and other big-box store bicycles are infamous in the cycling community for their poor quality and assembly, often to the point of being completely unsafe to ride at any speed (Nader reference intended). They often use the cheapest high-tensile steel they can find, off-brand rims, mix-and-match groupsets, low-quality brakes, and so forth. The bike you linked exemplifies that - mixed Shimano/SRAM components and…

mixed Shimano/SRAM components Is this an actual problem, or just something someone only would do if they were heavily trying to minimize cost?

It's not a problem if the parts have been intentionally selected and tuned to operate with each other. It's all springs and wire tension internally, and a good bike mechanic can make just about any (modern) groupset components work together.

However, box-store bikes are usually just built with whatever individual components are cheapest in bulk at that price bracket. More often that not, that means mixing and matching for no good reason other than to save the retailer a few cents.

Re: Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA

#87

Post by Unman » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #78

Unman wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Front brake will flip you over in an instant, I know because I've done it, even at slow speeds That's because you simply do not know how to ride a bicycle. In such a situation you need to get your weight back behind the saddle and modulate the application of the brake. O.P. is one hundred percent correct that you do not need a rear brake -- and I speak as someone that rode for several years in without one including…

I "simply don't know how to ride a bicycle?" That's a big assumption you're making there, buddy. I don't know how your particular weight is distributed on your particular bicycle or what, but you're spreading dangerously wrong ideas. If you're going downhill and a child runs out in the street from between cars and you need to stop, and you're a normal person on a normal bike, you need a rear brake, end of story. If y…

It's not an assumption. You have now repeatedly asserted that you do not know how to.

Re: Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA

#88

Post by owenversteeg » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #22

mtdewcmu wrote: post #12

Can anyone figure out why it's so expensive? Here's a fancier-looking 26" bicycle on walmart.com for $79.97 - $249.00. [1] [1] https://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Roadmaster-Granite-Peak-Men-s-...

Walmart and other big-box store bicycles are infamous in the cycling community for their poor quality and assembly, often to the point of being completely unsafe to ride at any speed (Nader reference intended). They often use the cheapest high-tensile steel they can find, off-brand rims, mix-and-match groupsets, low-quality brakes, and so forth. The bike you linked exemplifies that - mixed Shimano/SRAM components and…

Boy would you love the Netherlands. Here, almost everyone rides a used bike that's had many owners, each of which changed it in some "improper" way. Wheels the wrong size for the bike, duct tape holding the bike together, half of the spokes broken, etc., etc.

But you know what? That's what the whole country uses for transportation, every day, and it works fine. It turns out that, in your day-to-day usage of a bike (and this is for a country of people who ride their bikes as their main mode of transportation) it doesn't matter what ridiculous new type of Chinesium your wheels are made out of, as long as they stay vaguely circular. Brakes don't work? Here, put this duct tape on the brake pads, now they work. Chain keeps falling off? Oh, just don't put it into that gear then. And when it completely falls apart one day, or when it gets stolen, then another one costs $50.

When I'm in the US, I ride an $1100 bike. It's ridiculous, the thing is this gleaming sparkly shade of white, fancy carbon fiber parts that are 150% more aerodynamic than everyone else's carbon fiber parts, a frame that is so light you can carry it with one finger, etc., etc. It goes really fast, and is so smooth I forget I'm biking. But when I'm in the Netherlands? I ride a $20 bike that has spokes sticking out and broken, rust covering everything, and sometimes the front falls off. I'm serious, the front actually falls off. Yes, the handlebars and front fork and the whole shebang, in one go.

Somewhat uniquely, American bike enthusiasts are insane about safety. "You could DIE with an improperly maintained bike!", "Not wearing a helmet is like not wearing a seatbelt!" and "Walmart bikes are death traps" are things I've heard recently. But somehow, when the front of my $20 bike falls off (which has happened twice now) all I get is a minor scrape to my hands.

Re: Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA

#89

Post by thrownblown » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 5:25 PM UTC

dripton wrote: post #62

woodruffw wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coaster brakes are somewhat common on city cruisers, but it is a little odd that they've chosen to go with the combination of the two. I reset my pedals when I'm coasting as well, and it's probably fair to say that we're not the target market. My guess is that it'll be popular among (shorter-distance) city commuters and college students who would've bought a Huffy or something equally shoddy instead.

I've seen the combination of a coaster brake and a front brake on some kids' bikes. I believe the thinking is that a coaster brake is friendly to novices, those with weak hands, and those who knock their front brake out of adjustment and don't know how to fix it. While a front brake gives riders who can actually get above 12 mph some actual stopping power for safety.

Reliance on a single coaster brake is dangerous. When a coaster brake fails, it can fail in two ways that are both very dangerous: full lock-up or full brake failure. They also have the tendency to catch at strange points in the pedal movement, like the vertical noon/6 position, which are difficult to establish the needed force to slow the bike.

I have a Shimano Nexus 3 speed with a coaster (and hand brakes) that is my daily driver, and where the coaster brake catches is pretty random. I can sometimes make several, as in 3 - 5, full backwards pedal rotations before it catches, other times it catches immediately. I am now in the habit of catching the brake before I descend any large hill. Since I live in Nobb Hill SF, that's every day.

Re: Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA

#90

Post by collyw » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 5:25 PM UTC

antfarm wrote: post #21

mtdewcmu wrote: post #12

Can anyone figure out why it's so expensive? Here's a fancier-looking 26" bicycle on walmart.com for $79.97 - $249.00. [1] [1] https://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Roadmaster-Granite-Peak-Men-s-...

The IKEA bike has a belt drive, disk brakes, aluminum frame, automatic 2-gear system, etc. The one from walmart.com is just plain cheap and low quality, nothing fancy about it.

Belt drive - I can't see much advantage to that. Aluminium frame - probably the Wallmart ones are as well. Disk brakes - cheap V brakes would be fine for the sort of cycling you will do on that thing. (This seems to have the cheaper cable pull disk brakes, rather than more powerful hydraulic ones). 2 gear system - hardly worth having only two gears in my opinion.

Maybe it's just because I am a bit of a bike snob with a fairly decent mountain bike, but I thought this looked pretty expensive for the type of riding it would be used for.