Don't Give Silicon Valley More H1B Visas • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Give Silicon Valley More H1B Visas

#51

Post by verstaen » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 1:41 AM UTC

trustfundbaby wrote: post #29

untog wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK H1B is not a longer path to becoming a citizen - it just allows you to apply for a green card alongside renewing your current visa status. The problem is that green cards are allocated according to country, and India has a huge backlog of a decade or more. Workers from other countries do not face this issue. I agree that it should be reformed, but I'm not optimistic.

Workers from other countries do not face this issue -------------- That hasn't been correct until very recently to be very fair. It used to be a wait of years in the EB3 category, the lane most h1bs qualify for, and has only recently (2014 or so) shortened to a few months. And to clarify, this is just to get a green card. it still takes 5 years after that green card to become a citizen.

Absolutely correct, it takes five years to be able to apply for citizenship for a green card holder. But a green card holder can move from job to job the way a US citizen does. So ince you have a green card, you are not submitted to the constraints of a visa.

Re: Don't Give Silicon Valley More H1B Visas

#52

Post by jedisct1 » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 1:42 AM UTC

elihu wrote: post #21

I think one of the main problems with the H1B visa program is that foreign workers are kept too long in a state of precarious residency. I work for a tech behemoth that imports an enormous workforce from overseas. My overall impression of my foreign colleagues is that they are very competent, hardworking people and the United States is better off for having them here. However, I'm uncomfortable with the kind of lever…

This!

Re: Don't Give Silicon Valley More H1B Visas

#53

Post by guitarbill » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 1:44 AM UTC

baytrailcat wrote: post #23

You cannot, as a culture, simultaneously underplay the importance of science and math education (nerds!!!) and complain when immigrants come in to occupy the high tech jobs. There is a big outrage about lack of high-paying jobs, yet there is rampant anti-intellectualism and discouragement of critical and analytical thinking which is needed for those jobs.

I agree, and it is by no means exclusive to the US. It's lucky for the US that it's still in a position to easily lure people from almost every country.

And this won't chance too soon, most TV shows and films, e.g. Big Bang Theory, Mr. Robot, do nothing to normalise the perception of these kinds of jobs. Workers are always portrayed as weird/quirky/dysfunctional. The closest portrayal to normality has been the workers in Westworld. But those jobs weren't exactly aspirational either...

Re: Don't Give Silicon Valley More H1B Visas

#54

Post by guitarbill » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 1:48 AM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #49

FabHK wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me. The USA have a ridiculous system of world wide taxation (like Eritrea). Sufficiently qualified people might want to work there for a while, but not become citizens. If you force the green card or even citizenship onto H1B employees, they might not want to come. Furthermore, if you're on a green card (or a citizen), you're subject to the exit tax. On an H1B, you can avoid it for a few years at least.

Some people do, some people don't, but US policy should be concerned primarily with what's good for the US, not what foreigners would prefer.

That's backwards. If you want to attract the best and brightest through any program - and you do, every country wants this, it's such a big win - drawbacks will put them off and defeat the point in the program. It then becomes self-filtering, and attracting only the people who are willing to come despite the drawbacks. And you probably don't want that outcome.

Re: Don't Give Silicon Valley More H1B Visas

#55

Post by albertTJames » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 1:58 AM UTC

It is more difficult to see the positive effects of expert workforce in large economies such as the US, but it is easier to observe how smaller but rich economies rely on foreign experts to compete: Switzerland and Singapour being two of such example. Those countries create strong incentive for expert immigration, in various fields, financials, engineering, academia, healthcare. A large portion of the workforce was not train in the country, and innovation both in academia and the private sector is often lead by multi-national teams. It is a classic pulsion of conservatism to try and severe the ties prone to increase the flux of information and people, but in the long run it will hurt the economy. Because if you are not doing it, others will do it and reap the benefits of freely trained experts and innovators. One key example is the migration of scientists during WW1 and WW2, which benefitted the US immensely and insured its supremacy over the second part of the 20th century.

Re: Don't Give Silicon Valley More H1B Visas

#56

Post by jimmywanger » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 2:03 AM UTC

LightskinKanye wrote: post #45

jecjec wrote: post #32

The H1B program needs to be ended immediately. It's an outrageous giveaway to corporations. It represents deliberate attempt to reduce the relative price of labor in the American economy.

Amen. People say there is a shortage of skilled labor. I just came out of a prestigious public CA university and can't find a job that pays a living wage. If coming out of a CS program with internships and I still don't have the skills maybe these companies should invest in training me as an entry level worker.

> If coming out of a CS program with internships and I still don't have the skills maybe these companies should invest in training me as an entry level worker.

Why is it the company's problem? I'd go after the university first, for providing a worthless degree, rather than a company's unwillingness to pay for (in their perspective) a worthless degree.

Re: Don't Give Silicon Valley More H1B Visas

#57

Post by elihu » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 2:10 AM UTC

untog wrote: post #28

elihu wrote: post #21

I think one of the main problems with the H1B visa program is that foreign workers are kept too long in a state of precarious residency. I work for a tech behemoth that imports an enormous workforce from overseas. My overall impression of my foreign colleagues is that they are very competent, hardworking people and the United States is better off for having them here. However, I'm uncomfortable with the kind of lever…

> If they've been here for a year or more, they should be able to quit their jobs if they want to without repercussions. To clarify: you absolutely can do that on an H1B. The problem is that you need to have a new job lined up to replace it, and that job needs to have gone through visa approval processes that can take up to three months (there is a grace period, I believe, of 30 days, soon to be extended to 60). This…

Thanks for the clarification; as a US citizen, I've never gone through the process myself, so I only know the bits and pieces I hear second-hand.

Re: Don't Give Silicon Valley More H1B Visas

#58

Post by ggame » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 2:10 AM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #49

FabHK wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me. The USA have a ridiculous system of world wide taxation (like Eritrea). Sufficiently qualified people might want to work there for a while, but not become citizens. If you force the green card or even citizenship onto H1B employees, they might not want to come. Furthermore, if you're on a green card (or a citizen), you're subject to the exit tax. On an H1B, you can avoid it for a few years at least.

Some people do, some people don't, but US policy should be concerned primarily with what's good for the US, not what foreigners would prefer.

It's a two way street. I had to leave the US as my US tax bill on foreign income exceeded my US income. I would have prefered to stay but I draw the line at paying to work.

Re: Don't Give Silicon Valley More H1B Visas

#59

Post by DrScump » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 2:55 AM UTC

hatsix wrote: post #35

jecjec wrote: post #32

The H1B program needs to be ended immediately. It's an outrageous giveaway to corporations. It represents deliberate attempt to reduce the relative price of labor in the American economy.

But that hasn't happened. Tech jobs have only increased in value. We still need more tech workers, and can't train them fast enough. Instead, we should be forcing citizenship on workers, encouraging them to stay here, start a family, etc. These are among the smartest and well-educated people in their former countries, and we have space for them.

  We still need more tech workers, and can't train them fast enough.

In the current bubble economy, that is. What happens when there is the inevitable downturn? How quickly people forget the late 2000s (let alone the early 1990s), where one was lucky to get a multi-month contracting gig.

For years, a bunch of coworker friends have gotten together for a White Elephant party after Christmas. During that era, more than half the group members experienced unemployment for long stretches of time... even while H1-Bs continued to be issued, and the entire H1-B quota was always consumed. And these were software engineers with over a decade of experience.

I had started an unrelated business (not in the software industry) and fared comparatively well.

Re: Don't Give Silicon Valley More H1B Visas

#60

Post by MR4D » Sun, Jan 15, 2017, 3:58 AM UTC

hatsix wrote: post #35

jecjec wrote: post #32

The H1B program needs to be ended immediately. It's an outrageous giveaway to corporations. It represents deliberate attempt to reduce the relative price of labor in the American economy.

But that hasn't happened. Tech jobs have only increased in value. We still need more tech workers, and can't train them fast enough. Instead, we should be forcing citizenship on workers, encouraging them to stay here, start a family, etc. These are among the smartest and well-educated people in their former countries, and we have space for them.

I find it odd that "we" can't train them fast enough but India can. (Ignoring other countries, as India is by far the biggest share here).

What is so magical about a developing nation with a billion people living in poverty that allows them to solve them problem and prevents us from solving it too?

Further, why is nobody asking this question, instead of just saying we can't do it?