Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers • Hacker News Board

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#61

Post by gravypod » Sat, Jan 14, 2017, 10:20 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #59

chimeracoder wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "donations" in this case aren't really donations. They're being paid in exchange for their blood plasma. Which gets back to the question - what's wrong with that? The alternative is not to pay people for donating plasma, and we can see quite clearly that that doesn't work - every country that does not pay for blood plasma donations runs a shortage, and most of them end up importing plasma from the US. So, we ha…

People also die due to disease contamination of the blood supply when you pay. Donation only blood supplies are much safer in the short and long term, until we can manufacture a replacement. Sure, right now we gave good tests for most diseases, but the next AIDS has no test making the long term risks real.

I don't think you read the post you replied to in full. He stipulated that the current testing methodology is good enough to prevent any death from blood purchasing.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#62

Post by Houshalter » Sat, Jan 14, 2017, 10:21 PM UTC

kome wrote: post #31

Houshalter wrote: post #26

This reminds me of "The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics": http://web.archive.org/web/20160806191858/https://blog.jaibo... Our culture has a very strange belief that you shouldn't benefit from the less fortunate. Even if you benefit them too. People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives, will come out of the woodwork and complain about "exploitation".

"People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives" is a particularly American, or let's say anglophone, way to approach social justice. Charities are based on good will, but "the less fortunate" do not need "good will": they need social rights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_rights If you don't see "exploitation" when people need and they are willing to sell their blood, I have no idea what you…

You are missing the point entirely, and being exactly the kind of person I am complaining about.

Buying plasma doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't make the poor worse off. It's certainly not "exploitation". And it's doing more to help the poor than the vast majority of people that don't do anything.

There is a problem in the world, that people are poor, desperate, or in need. But the plasma industry didn't cause poverty, and they aren't making it any worse. If anything they are making it better, if only slightly.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#63

Post by chongli » Sat, Jan 14, 2017, 10:23 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #26

This reminds me of "The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics": http://web.archive.org/web/20160806191858/https://blog.jaibo... Our culture has a very strange belief that you shouldn't benefit from the less fortunate. Even if you benefit them too. People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives, will come out of the woodwork and complain about "exploitation".

Believe it or not, some people are averse to charity or even oppose charity on principle. In many cases, it could be argued that charity sustains poverty [0] and that it would be better to endeavour to eliminate poverty entirely. One phenomenon that most dismays me is cultural capitalism [1]. This is a big part of the problem.

[0] http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/charity/against_1.shtml

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRvRm19UKdA

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#64

Post by peacetreefrog » Sat, Jan 14, 2017, 10:30 PM UTC

0xfaded wrote: post #53

Houshalter wrote: post #26

This reminds me of "The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics": http://web.archive.org/web/20160806191858/https://blog.jaibo... Our culture has a very strange belief that you shouldn't benefit from the less fortunate. Even if you benefit them too. People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives, will come out of the woodwork and complain about "exploitation".

A donated dollar is one less taxable dollar, so in practice provides a means for individually diverting taxes to charities one finds agreeable. In the US I've even heard people using this rational to avoid fuelling the military industrial complex. However a well functioning government that best served society would not have this problem. In principle it's the government's job to take care of society's needs, not the…

Not sure what this has to do with plasma apart from the word donate

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#65

Post by woodruffw » Sat, Jan 14, 2017, 10:39 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #26

This reminds me of "The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics": http://web.archive.org/web/20160806191858/https://blog.jaibo... Our culture has a very strange belief that you shouldn't benefit from the less fortunate. Even if you benefit them too. People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives, will come out of the woodwork and complain about "exploitation".

To paraphrase Kant:

You shouldn't use the less fortunate (or anybody, really) as a mere mean to an end. Paying the homeless a pittance to behave as moving antennas is about as close as you can get to treating someone as a mere mean. The same goes for paying the disadvantaged $40 for their plasma - we can all intuitively recognize that a minimal "solution" that treats the individual as a mean and not an individual (autonomous, self-legislating, etc) is not a "right" one.

The idea that recognizing this while not giving to charity makes you a hypocrite is puzzling. There's no conflict between the positive right to give to charity and the negative right to not be exploited.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#66

Post by sandworm101 » Sat, Jan 14, 2017, 10:39 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #47

sandworm101 wrote: post #29

The rules against paying donors in many countries can cause problems. Some people with very rare bloodtypes are in high demand. When someone needs that rare blood we could at least cover the traveling expenses needed to bring in the willing donor. But that just isnt allowed.

I habe 0+ which isn't rare but still in high dem and.

I also have o+ but recentlu found out i will never be allowed to donate in canada because i lived in the middle east off and on as a kid (80s and 90s). The saudis imported beef from the uk. So i have been exposed to mad cow disease. 25 years later and i am symptom free. Lol.

This rule bans so many soldiers, expats and immigrants that i am forced to conclude canada blood services has more than enough blood. The saudis happily took my blood at 15yo. They paid me for it.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#67

Post by tunap » Sat, Jan 14, 2017, 10:44 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #62

kome wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives" is a particularly American, or let's say anglophone, way to approach social justice. Charities are based on good will, but "the less fortunate" do not need "good will": they need social rights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_rights If you don't see "exploitation" when people need and they are willing to sell their blood, I have no idea what you…

You are missing the point entirely, and being exactly the kind of person I am complaining about. Buying plasma doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't make the poor worse off. It's certainly not "exploitation". And it's doing more to help the poor than the vast majority of people that don't do anything. There is a problem in the world, that people are poor, desperate, or in need. But the plasma industry didn't cause poverty,…

But they did ratchet back the prices! Back in college I went with friends to donate plasma(I had a job, didn't 'need' the money). It was interesting and paid $75 for but the poor and desperate was gone. Nowadays I'll give blood for free(& snacks!), will not waste half a day to enrich the lab's bottom line.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#68

Post by Houshalter » Sat, Jan 14, 2017, 10:50 PM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #65

Houshalter wrote: post #26

This reminds me of "The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics": http://web.archive.org/web/20160806191858/https://blog.jaibo... Our culture has a very strange belief that you shouldn't benefit from the less fortunate. Even if you benefit them too. People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives, will come out of the woodwork and complain about "exploitation".

To paraphrase Kant: You shouldn't use the less fortunate (or anybody, really) as a mere mean to an end. Paying the homeless a pittance to behave as moving antennas is about as close as you can get to treating someone as a mere mean. The same goes for paying the disadvantaged $40 for their plasma - we can all intuitively recognize that a minimal "solution" that treats the individual as a mean and not an individual (au…

Who cares? The only relevant question is "Do their actions make the world a better place?" Or perhaps, "Are they improving these people's lives, or making them worse?" And yes, they are improving their lives, if only slightly. They are making the world a better place.

The people who claim to care about these poor people, have done nothing to help them. Their revealed preferences show they don't actually care at all. They just want to signal how virtuous and moral they are. The policies they support would actually make them poorer. And they know that and don't care.

It is the worst kind of hypocrisy, and I believe it's responsible for many of the world's problems.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#69

Post by RUG3Y » Sat, Jan 14, 2017, 10:50 PM UTC

I've donated plasma when I was really broke...only a couple of months ago. I would do it again except the phlebotomist perforated the vein in my left arm 6 or 7 times, digging around for what felt like an eternity. I'm a glutton for punishment but that definitely wasn't worth 40 bucks. I needed money for car parts though.

The really interesting thing about the plasma center is all the oddball characters you get to see. It's worth a visit just to experience the weird vibe.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#70

Post by darawk » Sat, Jan 14, 2017, 10:52 PM UTC

kome wrote: post #31

Houshalter wrote: post #26

This reminds me of "The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics": http://web.archive.org/web/20160806191858/https://blog.jaibo... Our culture has a very strange belief that you shouldn't benefit from the less fortunate. Even if you benefit them too. People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives, will come out of the woodwork and complain about "exploitation".

"People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives" is a particularly American, or let's say anglophone, way to approach social justice. Charities are based on good will, but "the less fortunate" do not need "good will": they need social rights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_rights If you don't see "exploitation" when people need and they are willing to sell their blood, I have no idea what you…

What's wrong with selling your blood? To me it seems like selling your time is a far more personal, unrecoverable injustice. And most people just call that 'work'.

If you want to make it out like these people are being 'exploited', then you can make the case just the same that all property is exploitation. Railing against poor people donating blood plasma, or organs for that matter, is profoundly misguided.