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Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

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Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup and Eben Upton did it to teach basics of computer programming and development since he was so frustrated with the state of things in the UK. I really hate the attitude of the root post that holds open hardware above everything else. RPi has done a ton to help education getting a new generation excited about computers.

teach basics of computer programming and development There are already Arduinos and regular PCs (of which you will find far more documentation on... especially the latter) for that. Why make another closed proprietary system just for teaching? All it will do is make those educated (indoctrinated?) by it think this type of environment should be the norm and encouraged, when there are in fact plenty of better ones. Eve…

> Even a C64 or a ZX Spectrum would be a better choice than an RPi for teaching

This is the strangest opinion I've seen all day. My teen programming years were on a c64 in the late 80s, and in retrospect that was a really tough learning experience (and when I got to college and had access to 'anything else' I never looked back).

Also how was the c64 not a 'closed proprietary system'?

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

teach basics of computer programming and development There are already Arduinos and regular PCs (of which you will find far more documentation on... especially the latter) for that. Why make another closed proprietary system just for teaching? All it will do is make those educated (indoctrinated?) by it think this type of environment should be the norm and encouraged, when there are in fact plenty of better ones. Eve…

> Even a C64 or a ZX Spectrum would be a better choice than an RPi for teaching This is the strangest opinion I've seen all day. My teen programming years were on a c64 in the late 80s, and in retrospect that was a really tough learning experience (and when I got to college and had access to 'anything else' I never looked back). Also how was the c64 not a 'closed proprietary system'?

Also how was the c64 not a 'closed proprietary system'?

It's been completely reverse-engineered, emulated, and documented, a lot more than can be said of the SoC in the RPi. Maybe in 30 years the same will happen to the latter, but I'm not too optimistic about that.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My impression has been that this has mostly been about giving a cheap, easy to use software platform, and they've succeeded at that because of the price/performance balance." It was chosen mainly for the low price. The performance was a little subpar but it had the advantage of a decent video graphics block. "Now that this platform is more established, I imagine they can apply some pressure to get things like the vi…

I doubt the pi foundation are remotely concerned with how open the soc is as it has absolutely no impact on the core uses of the pi. They're smart people and would have made a different choice were it the case.

I've seen statements from them about this. They do care but they also are pragmatic and made the choices they had to make to reach their goal, which was to have a small cheap programmable device with enough power to make cool things easily. Openness came second to that.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OMAP3, OMAP4, Sitara, iMX5, iMX6. The Broadcom part in the RPi was heavily subsidized. Don't be fooled by price here.

Yes but still, at that time these SoC alone were above the rpi board price point. If you wanted to sell something aronud 30 you had to do vendor tricks with odd parts.

Yes. Embedded engineers do this every day.

BTW the Broadcom part is heavily subsidized.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OMAP3, OMAP4, Sitara, iMX5, iMX6. The Broadcom part in the RPi was heavily subsidized. Don't be fooled by price here.

Yes but still, at that time these SoC alone were above the rpi board price point. If you wanted to sell something aronud 30 you had to do vendor tricks with odd parts.

[deleted]

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even a C64 or a ZX Spectrum would be a better choice than an RPi for teaching This is the strangest opinion I've seen all day. My teen programming years were on a c64 in the late 80s, and in retrospect that was a really tough learning experience (and when I got to college and had access to 'anything else' I never looked back). Also how was the c64 not a 'closed proprietary system'?

Also how was the c64 not a 'closed proprietary system'? It's been completely reverse-engineered, emulated, and documented, a lot more than can be said of the SoC in the RPi. Maybe in 30 years the same will happen to the latter, but I'm not too optimistic about that.

That means it was a closed, proprietary system that was reverse engineered & emulated. Different from an open system that doesn't require that. Also more efficient in hardware if any clones port original design.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#97
post #65
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Across three RPis, I've bought about seven SD cards, and from everything RPi users tell me, that's a totally normal failure rate. Sounds about right. I went through maybe 4-6 cards on 2 Raspberry Pis in a year and a half. > I'd love someone knowledgeable to explain why this happens. According to general opinion on the RPi forums, it's because SD card manufacturers cheap out all the time SD cards are basically uniqu…

>it uses the adapter to charge the battery and/or feed the regulator circuit, the key being there is a regulator circuit here. The Pi does not have one. Wait, what? Of course the RPi has voltage regulators. Do you think the Broadcom chip runs at 5V? There's a LP2980-N and NCP1117 shown in the schematic.

Yeah, and microSD cards run at 3V3. The problem is that a phone usually has better filtering capacitors, which the Pi lacks and thus any noise from the power line directly goes from 5V down to 3V3. Oh, and people usually buy the 2-5$ range of power adaptors from Amazon, I'm amazed that no one has managed to burn down their house with this stuff.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#98
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no sane reason which would explain why you should not have bought a Pi. Open or not it would not make any difference to more than a small room full of people. A bunch of people spent years designing hardware and negotiating with people to get the Pi built at a low cost and it's become the best selling UK computer ever with over 10,000,000 sales. It's succeeded at what it was supposed to do; provide an educat…

It's really doubtful that more than a tiny fraction of RPi sales have gone to kids. Be honest here, whatever the RPi Foundation's marketing, the overwhelming majority have gone to hobbyists. The RPi is uniquely unsuited to an educational environment anyway. The SD cards are unreliable, especially in combination with the RPi's poor power filtering and the cheapo phone adapters it's usually paired with. Anyone who has…

> It's really doubtful that more than a tiny fraction of RPi sales have gone to kids. Be honest here, whatever the RPi Foundation's marketing, the overwhelming majority have gone to hobbyists.

That's great, the hard work put in by hobbyists has made the Pi an even better platform to teach the kids. And their purchases have helped financially support the educational mission. I say this as a hobbyist who started out picking up a Pi and has now directly taught kids.

> The RPi is uniquely unsuited to an educational environment anyway.

A traditional educational environment, maybe, but it's exactly those environments that have made computing such a dry and uninteresting pursuit in the first place. The computer lab at my school and college was tragic. I can only imagine how much I'd have loved to hack on a Pi, and I'm glad to be a small part of the effort to make that opportunity available to present and future generations.

> The SD cards are unreliable

I've used Pi's non-stop since day 1, and it's been a large part of my career for over 3 years. I can count the number of SD card failures I've had on one hand. I've never been particularly careful about shutting them down. I have two running on my desk 24/7 for development/testing. We've have two running in our post room, hard powered on/off every single day for 2 years. I think reports of unreliability are greatly exaggerated.

> the cheapo phone adapters

There's an official Pi power-supply for that. I certainly wont argue that terrible phone adapters are a problem though. It was the answer to every problem report on IRC for years :D

> You can't PXE boot them

The Pi 3 can PXE boot and boot without SD cards from, albeit not all, hard disks and other USB-attached storage.

> The Pi should have had eMMC day one

I think the cost of this wouldn't have helped with traction.

> shipped with a proper power adapter

Yup! Albeit, cost again. And, arguably, there are pretty good reasons not to ship a microUSB power adaptor, since most of us already have a tangled mess of them anyway from a dozen past phones. It's just unfortunate the phone ones were/are awful.

> The Pi still needs a case

It doesn't need one, but they look pretty :D Incidentally it's because someone recognised the demand for a case that I have a job that I love. Oh and people love to accessorize, so the ability for a customer to choose one to their liking is often a positive part of the experience.

> a monitor

Most people had an HDMI TV, but in retrospect the inclusion of HDMI/RCA led to a whole aftermarket of HDMI->VGA adaptors since schools are stuck in 1998. I think it's important to reinforce that learning doesn't, and absolutely shouldn't, only happen in schools.

> a proper system architecture with SATA and often USB 3.0 and gigabit ethernet

To hobbyists, maybe, but then they'd have cost $100 and been another unsung bit-player like the BeagleBone Black (Disclaimer: I loved the BBB). The Pi's biggest success was shaking up market, perhaps even creating one, and gravitating a whole bunch of people to a common cause. They also proved there was a market, so now if you want those things, there are plenty of alternative choices! And then they did it again with the Pi Zero- blatantly giving the market an "we're not going to watch you hit $9, $8, $7, $6 price points just for headlines. Get to the point" shakeup. You don't have to buy a Zero, but you'd be on rocky ground if you tried to argue that your options aren't better because of it.

> Furthermore - the Pi was plagued by driver problems with its USB stack for years

Ugh. shudder memories! But largely irrelevant these days.

> it totally fails as a machine for teaching programming compared to Ye Olde White Box.

Having run several workshops using the Pi, and contributed to more, I disagree. If for nothing else other than it's different enough to not simply put people off from the get-go. "Learn programming on these boring old white boxes" is not nearly as exciting as "learn to interface the real world with minecraft on credit-card sized computer." The low cost and educational push has also enticed a wave of enthusiastic geeks out of the woodwork, eager to teach anyone who'll listen. I know and deeply respect many of them, and I've had tremendous opportunity to make a positive impact on people's lives that perhaps I wouldn't have ever realised without the Pi.

> I tried to run a pair of RPis as my fileservers for about a year and a half

Yup. They are totally awful for this purpose, or at least just barely adequate, but that doesn't reinforce that they're awful at everything else.

> running an educational PC lab

I think you perhaps have too narrow a definition of education. I think the Pi excels because it fascinates people outside of a sterile classroom environment. Nobody is going to build and battle a robot, or create a 20 square foot version of whack-a-mole, or make a power-glove controlled robot arm, or a "disco" button that explodes their living room into song and light... out of a bunch of computers PXE-booting and tethered to ethernet.

The effort put into Blobless linux is itself a fantastic example of people using the Pi to push their own boundaries and learn things. And you say it's failed at being educational? Nonsense.

@christina_b - thank you!

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#99
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound like there was an alternative, which at least at design-time, there wasn't. On top of that, other vendors have pretty much the same problems. Take Intel's stuff for example. It doesn't work without a BSP and you can't even boot a system and have it on for over 30 minutes without a running Management Engine. Qualcomm, AllWinner, Marvell, Ti, they all make ARM SoC's and they all need their own BSP's t…

No, Broadcom is quite unique in requiring blobs to boot. There are plenty of SoCs that are functional without firmware blobs. Generally there are issues getting the GPU working well without firmware blobs but other aspects work fine. Check out the Freescale part used in Bunnie's Novena laptop for example. This is also the case for TI parts and the other manufacturers you list. Broadcom is somewhat unique in requiring…

But isn't the blob in the Pi just that, for the GPU? It's the GPU that boots and then the CPU, not the other way around. Or does the blob contain both GPU code and CPU code? And how is this different from UEFI or BIOS, or option ROMs in video cards? AFAIK you have plenty of Broadcom chips that don't need a blob to boot, those in most routers for example. Sure. there are routers with redboot, u-boot, CFE etc. but they are not much different from a BIOS firmware in a PC.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#100
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet they have the best mainline driver support, with a fully open VPU driver. Not saying they did any of that mind you, but they at least put the docs out there and eventually posted their BSP on github under GPLv2, so their changes could be updated & mainlined.

> Yet they have the best mainline driver support, with a fully open VPU driver. It is not fully open. ( http://linux-sunxi.org/CedarX ). Partial code was published a year and a half ago, but the video engine still isn't supported. Their GPUs are Mali, as well, which is still a large obstacle in running a modern kernel. Not to mention that all the code they published was as code dumps, some was under unclear licensing…

Uhh, if you want a bad experience from a closed source blob, CedarX is your go to. Cedrus is the fully open VPU driver I was referring to, with H265, VP8 and H264 support.

http://linux-sunxi.org/Cedrus

Mali is still closed source, but GPUs in general are in a poor state for open driver support. Luckily you don't need GPU drivers to bring up Xorg on HDMI on Allwinner chips, so unless your playing video games, it is a non-issue.

Their code dumps they have cleared up the licensing on as of late, Tyle from Allwinner did make clear that everything that isn't explicitly licensed in the file itself is under GPLv2, and that that was Allwinner's original intention. The fact that they are ancient BSP kernels is sucky, but the community is making these sub-$1 SOCs run circles around the other SBCs.

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