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Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

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Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#51
post #28
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there SoCs at a comparable price/speed that are more open? I can understand being disappointed at this choice, but if no other options exist, then either you're sacrificing price or performance to get more open-ness. My impression has been that this has mostly been about giving a cheap, easy to use software platform, and they've succeeded at that because of the price/performance balance. That was then, though. No…

The Orange Pi PC is $15, roughly comparable to the Pi 3 performance wise, and doesn't require any of this hilarity to boot with open source code.

See my other comment about Allwinner, but basically my biggest issue is that they lock down their bootloader with signing and do not allow you to execute code in EL3/Secure mode without exploits.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#52
post #34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Orange Pi PC is $15, roughly comparable to the Pi 3 performance wise, and doesn't require any of this hilarity to boot with open source code.

Not sure why this is downvoted. The OPi chip maybe for not cone from a "respected" western company but it is in all regards a more open chip. While the datasheet is almost as thin as that of Broadcom it is mostly because they use standard components where the full datasheet is available from arm. There are also far less magic blobs and crazy boot gymnastics in there.

Is it just me or the downloads on the Orange Pi site have no checksum attached?

http://www.orangepi.org/downloadresources/orangepipc2/2016-1...

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#53
post #2

Sadists. The Pi's choice of picking one of the most egregiously unsupported and anti-open source CPU cores was absurd. The people doing the absurdly hard work of taking up the slack that the Raspberry Pi Foundation created from this pick AND the RPI Foundations complete unconcern about the situation and open source at large is to me beyond belief. For a thing that purported to be an educational platform, this situati…

What SoC of that class (perf/price) was on shelves when the rpi started ?

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#54
post #5
post #2

Sadists. The Pi's choice of picking one of the most egregiously unsupported and anti-open source CPU cores was absurd. The people doing the absurdly hard work of taking up the slack that the Raspberry Pi Foundation created from this pick AND the RPI Foundations complete unconcern about the situation and open source at large is to me beyond belief. For a thing that purported to be an educational platform, this situati…

Are there SoCs at a comparable price/speed that are more open? I can understand being disappointed at this choice, but if no other options exist, then either you're sacrificing price or performance to get more open-ness. My impression has been that this has mostly been about giving a cheap, easy to use software platform, and they've succeeded at that because of the price/performance balance. That was then, though. No…

Nowadays possibly; when the rpi project started I don't think so.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#55
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no sane reason which would explain why you should not have bought a Pi. Open or not it would not make any difference to more than a small room full of people. A bunch of people spent years designing hardware and negotiating with people to get the Pi built at a low cost and it's become the best selling UK computer ever with over 10,000,000 sales. It's succeeded at what it was supposed to do; provide an educat…

It's really doubtful that more than a tiny fraction of RPi sales have gone to kids. Be honest here, whatever the RPi Foundation's marketing, the overwhelming majority have gone to hobbyists. The RPi is uniquely unsuited to an educational environment anyway. The SD cards are unreliable, especially in combination with the RPi's poor power filtering and the cheapo phone adapters it's usually paired with. Anyone who has…

    SD card failures
I'd love someone knowledgeable to explain why this happens. According to general opinion on the RPi forums, it's because SD card manufacturers cheap out all the time.

I'd have something like a dozen SD cards running things like cameras over the years, and probably a hundred booting ESXi servers. And I've never seen a failure.

Across three RPis, I've bought about seven SD cards, and from everything RPi users tell me, that's a totally normal failure rate.

Edit: In regards to cheap whiteboxes, no such options allow access to GPIO ports. I've learn plenty of interesting things about soldering circuits by having these, without considering the Pi a PC learning tool.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#56
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really doubtful that more than a tiny fraction of RPi sales have gone to kids. Be honest here, whatever the RPi Foundation's marketing, the overwhelming majority have gone to hobbyists. The RPi is uniquely unsuited to an educational environment anyway. The SD cards are unreliable, especially in combination with the RPi's poor power filtering and the cheapo phone adapters it's usually paired with. Anyone who has…

SD card failures I'd love someone knowledgeable to explain why this happens. According to general opinion on the RPi forums, it's because SD card manufacturers cheap out all the time. I'd have something like a dozen SD cards running things like cameras over the years, and probably a hundred booting ESXi servers. And I've never seen a failure. Across three RPis, I've bought about seven SD cards, and from everything RP…

Yeah… also in particular microSD cards have been used in mobile phones for years and I haven't heard any card corruption stories about phones.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#57

It would be nice to add RPi support to the u-boot bootloader.

We have considered it, however, because there's still a need for a firmware, the first stage bootloader and the firmware itself are using a common driver framework, it just makes things easier. Besides, the firmware will later run an RTOS (for example LittleKernel) and Uboot doesn't provide RTOS-like services.

Would be nice to chainload U-Boot from your firmware/loader though, because FreeBSD boots via U-Boot.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#58
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really doubtful that more than a tiny fraction of RPi sales have gone to kids. Be honest here, whatever the RPi Foundation's marketing, the overwhelming majority have gone to hobbyists. The RPi is uniquely unsuited to an educational environment anyway. The SD cards are unreliable, especially in combination with the RPi's poor power filtering and the cheapo phone adapters it's usually paired with. Anyone who has…

SD card failures I'd love someone knowledgeable to explain why this happens. According to general opinion on the RPi forums, it's because SD card manufacturers cheap out all the time. I'd have something like a dozen SD cards running things like cameras over the years, and probably a hundred booting ESXi servers. And I've never seen a failure. Across three RPis, I've bought about seven SD cards, and from everything RP…

> Across three RPis, I've bought about seven SD cards, and from everything RPi users tell me, that's a totally normal failure rate.

Sounds about right. I went through maybe 4-6 cards on 2 Raspberry Pis in a year and a half.

> I'd love someone knowledgeable to explain why this happens. According to general opinion on the RPi forums, it's because SD card manufacturers cheap out all the time

SD cards are basically uniquely ill-suited to be used in a Raspberry Pi.

First off, cheap SD cards have no wear levelling. The flash controllers are super primitive. They are designed to be written sequentially until full, and erased, like you would use a camera. A regular Linux operating system is not designed to moderate its writes, it will happily do all kinds of work and logging on /var and other places, doing tons of heavy random writes that put tons of wear on the card (write amplification/etc), and there is no levelling taking place. The flash cells just burn out.

Real mobile OSs are much smarter about what they write to flash, and they have eMMC that usually has at least a slightly smarter controller optimized for more random-ish loads, and/or is totally under the CPU's control with a filesystem designed to work with flash.

Next, flash doesn't like to be powered off during erases or writes. In some cases it can actually corrupt operations that were successfully completed. The flash cells do not get as much charge as they should and can decay prematurely.

Nor does flash like operating under questionable power conditions either. The flash can think it's successfully completed the operation, the processor will keep on trucking, but if the voltage drooped too much, the write doesn't persist. In some cases, this can cause the flash to get trapped in a "bricked" state that needs a hard reset to clear properly (which can't be done with a SD card).

http://superuser.com/questions/290060/can-flash-memory-be-ph...

The Pi also has no/very little power filtering. Your phone doesn't ever run off the charger. It uses the adapter to charge the battery and/or feed the regulator circuit, the key being there is a regulator circuit here. The Pi does not have one.

In short - the Pi is an absolute worst case in terms of power. Your average camera or phone has a battery, so the power is clean, full-on power faults are quite uncommon, and the device can monitor voltage and stop doing writes before things get critical. Not only is it really, really easy to accidentally or purposefully unplug the Pi, or flip the power strip off, but the shit-tier phone chargers that get used with it have terrible power filtering and tend to have wildly insufficient power delivery capacity. Under load, the voltage droops and the noise on the power line gets pretty intense.

With the first-gen Pis, there was an additional physical issue with the SD cards. The cards are just made of plastic, they are meant to go into a slot in a camera or phone that physically supports them, they are not intended to just hang off into space. The Pi does actually get fairly warm, especially if you have it in a case, and hot plastic warps. The card loses contact half-way through a write and there goes your file system.

http://likemagicappears.com/2014/03/11/sd_card_issues/

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=39843&p=3...

https://bigdanzblog.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/raspberry-pi-fa...

Adding a "UPS" board that can command a soft-poweroff, a decent microSD card (Samsung EVO are reputedly the most reliable on a Pi), and a "low-profile" microSD adapter that doesn't hang off into space quite as much reportedly make a pretty big difference in reliability, as does using a purpose-built adapter from a reputable vendor like Adafruit or something. Not running it in a case probably helps too.

Again though, once you spend the money to fix the flaws, you could just buy something that just includes what you need to boot up right in the box.

I really can't emphasize enough how much all of this is actually the result of poor design. If the Pi Foundation would have chucked a 2 GB eMMC chip on there and added a barrel connector and a decent power supply, these issues would be essentially eliminated. And IMO the issues are pretty much show-stoppers for any chance of reliable operation.

> In regards to cheap whiteboxes, no such options allow access to GPIO ports. I've learn plenty of interesting things about soldering circuits by having these, without considering the Pi a PC learning tool.

That's definitely true, but you can also buy a Bus Pirate that will be capable of adapting most simple embedded units to any PC.

You really only need the Pi's GPIOs when you are doing something that involves really high throughput or really low latency. The examples I've heard are video streams and using a GPS board as a reference for an NTP server - they exist, but for your every day "talk SPI/I2C to a sensor" or "count freqency counts from a sensor" the Bus Pirate does very well.

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SD card failures I'd love someone knowledgeable to explain why this happens. According to general opinion on the RPi forums, it's because SD card manufacturers cheap out all the time. I'd have something like a dozen SD cards running things like cameras over the years, and probably a hundred booting ESXi servers. And I've never seen a failure. Across three RPis, I've bought about seven SD cards, and from everything RP…

Yeah… also in particular micro SD cards have been used in mobile phones for years and I haven't heard any card corruption stories about phones.

[deleted]

Re: Blobless Linux on Raspberry Pi

#60
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are fighting the good fight, freeing one of the most common single board computers! That being said, besides quantity, why focus on the Raspberry Pi instead of Allwinner H3 based boards or another board where most of the support (including uboot) is already upstreamed & can be run with a fully libre stack?

If a "development" board does not let me run my own code in EL3 (Secure monitor mode), I'm not buying it, as simple as that. A lot of boards that use Allwinner chips will use a signed bootloader that exits secure mode before passing control to your code. My favourite is probably NVIDIA Jetson TX1 where development boards do not have a key fused in them and have documented TrustZone peripherals, so you're free to run…

I didn't even know Allwinner supported secure boot, and it's certainly not widely used as far as I know. Running your own code in EL3 is pretty standard there because it's the mode when the ROM bootloader hands over control to the user-provided bootloader. You sure you haven't confused them with one of the other manufacturers?
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