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Music's weird cassette-tape revival is paying off

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Re: Music's weird cassette-tape revival is paying off

#101

Post by semi-extrinsic »

lb1lf wrote: post #73
everyone wrote: post #13

This word gets thrown around a lot but, hipsters! As others have attested there is nothing good about tapes. There are very good reasons why vinyl has survived (You can manipulate it with your hand when djing, and see the music on it, also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process) But tapes, no, they are shit.…

>(...)also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process -This, with all due respect, is a myth. Much as I love my LPs, by any objective criteria the CD (or any digital media) beats them handsomely. Dynamic range, frequency response, noise floor, channel separation - even on the best mastered, half-speed cut, heavy…

I thought it was an inherent limitation in LPs (track skipping probability increases with loudness) that meant they are not mastered into oblivion like CDs?

Re: Music's weird cassette-tape revival is paying off

#102

Post by ZenoArrow »

everyone wrote: post #13

This word gets thrown around a lot but, hipsters! As others have attested there is nothing good about tapes. There are very good reasons why vinyl has survived (You can manipulate it with your hand when djing, and see the music on it, also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process) But tapes, no, they are shit.…

>"As others have attested there is nothing good about tapes."

Tapes weren't as bad as you may think/remember, at least not from an audio point of view, if you Type-IV cassettes and Dolby S noise reduction you can get pretty decent sound output:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVoSQP2yUYA

I personally preferred MiniDisc, but I don't see them making a resurgence, probably lots of proprietary parts of the tech owned by Sony.

Re: Music's weird cassette-tape revival is paying off

#103

Post by SixSigma »

joshontheweb wrote: post #63
everyone wrote: post #13

This word gets thrown around a lot but, hipsters! As others have attested there is nothing good about tapes. There are very good reasons why vinyl has survived (You can manipulate it with your hand when djing, and see the music on it, also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process) But tapes, no, they are shit.…

Not really much of a counter point but you can actually scratch cassette tapes. This guy shows how cool it can be. Never seen anyone else do it though. I want to build my own at some point. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7nImXd0nxU4

For years, Laurie Anderson has been using a violin bow with tape as the "strings" and a tape head as pickups on the violin body.

Here's a recording from 1977 of her playing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZyXwcsboGs

Re: Music's weird cassette-tape revival is paying off

#104

Post by notahacker »

lb1lf wrote: post #73
everyone wrote: post #13

This word gets thrown around a lot but, hipsters! As others have attested there is nothing good about tapes. There are very good reasons why vinyl has survived (You can manipulate it with your hand when djing, and see the music on it, also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process) But tapes, no, they are shit.…

>(...)also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process -This, with all due respect, is a myth. Much as I love my LPs, by any objective criteria the CD (or any digital media) beats them handsomely. Dynamic range, frequency response, noise floor, channel separation - even on the best mastered, half-speed cut, heavy…

Arguably the same process of "competent" mastering that increases dynamic range etc results in a product with less fidelity to how recordings from certain eras were originally enjoyed[1]. There were comparatively few recordings made that were intended to be consumed exclusively on cassette.

[1] Granted, it would have been perfectly possible to master CD audio to vinyl's sonic limitations and even introduce artificial noise if sound engineers chose to do so, and plenty of digital players give you some scope to modify dynamic range

Re: Music's weird cassette-tape revival is paying off

#105

Post by UweSchmidt »

lb1lf wrote: post #73
everyone wrote: post #13

This word gets thrown around a lot but, hipsters! As others have attested there is nothing good about tapes. There are very good reasons why vinyl has survived (You can manipulate it with your hand when djing, and see the music on it, also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process) But tapes, no, they are shit.…

>(...)also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process -This, with all due respect, is a myth. Much as I love my LPs, by any objective criteria the CD (or any digital media) beats them handsomely. Dynamic range, frequency response, noise floor, channel separation - even on the best mastered, half-speed cut, heavy…

Recently I had the priviledge to hear a high quality LP (Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms) on high-end equipment (100k speakers, 40k amp, 35k Player) and switch back and forth to a FLAC that came from another expensive looking box directly into the same amp.

There was a definite difference in quality between the LP and the FLAC file, especially when switching from good (LP) to bad(file).

I can only assume but not guarantee that the FLAC file was produced correctly; otherwise the technical environment seemed to be close to perfection. The quality however dropped of considerably with all the other LPs we've tried for many reasons. Quality seems to depend on the recording, mixing and actual physical quality of the LP a lot.

This experience changed my view on the issue for now :)

Re: Music's weird cassette-tape revival is paying off

#106

Post by ZenoArrow »

pjc50 wrote: post #92
Nav_Panel wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only reason to use them is some form of conspicuous consumption, signaling how cool and wacky u are Disagree. 1. Sometimes the sonic characteristics of tapes DO complement the music. Typically for genres other than popular music or symphonic/classical/orchestral music (where absolute fidelity is king). 2. Physical media as opposed to digital media is, for some/many, inherently gratifying. It is a more multiface…

> Sometimes the sonic characteristics of tapes DO complement the music Indeed - this is especially true of synthwave/vaporwave and other genres that are themselves nostalgic for the days of synth-heavy music sold on cassette. A bit of compression and hiss is just right. Just as some games put fake film grain on screen, some synthwave videos add a "badly tracked VHS" effect.

>"Indeed - this is especially true of synthwave/vaporwave and other genres that are themselves nostalgic for the days of synth-heavy music sold on cassette."

Yeah, I wouldn't mind a TRONICBOX cassette:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV1N95xZ4es

>"Just as some games put fake film grain on screen, some synthwave videos add a "badly tracked VHS" effect."

Kung Fury is probably a good example of that style:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

Re: Music's weird cassette-tape revival is paying off

#107

Post by croon »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #105
lb1lf wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(...)also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process -This, with all due respect, is a myth. Much as I love my LPs, by any objective criteria the CD (or any digital media) beats them handsomely. Dynamic range, frequency response, noise floor, channel separation - even on the best mastered, half-speed cut, heavy…

Recently I had the priviledge to hear a high quality LP (Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms) on high-end equipment (100k speakers, 40k amp, 35k Player) and switch back and forth to a FLAC that came from another expensive looking box directly into the same amp. There was a definite difference in quality between the LP and the FLAC file, especially when switching from good (LP) to bad(file). I can only assume but not guar…

A lot of people like the vinyl "sound".

What do you mean by your usage of "quality"?

What was the "expensive looking box"?

How was it connected to the amp?

Where did the DA-conversion happen?

What was the source for the FLAC?

I'm sorry, but this is barely even anecdata.

Re: Music's weird cassette-tape revival is paying off

#108

Post by croon »

pjc50 wrote: post #92
Nav_Panel wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only reason to use them is some form of conspicuous consumption, signaling how cool and wacky u are Disagree. 1. Sometimes the sonic characteristics of tapes DO complement the music. Typically for genres other than popular music or symphonic/classical/orchestral music (where absolute fidelity is king). 2. Physical media as opposed to digital media is, for some/many, inherently gratifying. It is a more multiface…

> Sometimes the sonic characteristics of tapes DO complement the music Indeed - this is especially true of synthwave/vaporwave and other genres that are themselves nostalgic for the days of synth-heavy music sold on cassette. A bit of compression and hiss is just right. Just as some games put fake film grain on screen, some synthwave videos add a "badly tracked VHS" effect.

I lived through the 80s then, and am sometimes nostalgic for old stuff. I listen to a lot of synthwave now, and do appreciate the variable speed distortion on some tracks. But I also exclusively listen to digital music, where I get a (basically) 1:1 representation of what the artist produced.

Getting further distortions from the medium isn't something I want or need.

Re: Music's weird cassette-tape revival is paying off

#109

Post by wazoox »

lb1lf wrote: post #73
everyone wrote: post #13

This word gets thrown around a lot but, hipsters! As others have attested there is nothing good about tapes. There are very good reasons why vinyl has survived (You can manipulate it with your hand when djing, and see the music on it, also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process) But tapes, no, they are shit.…

>(...)also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process -This, with all due respect, is a myth. Much as I love my LPs, by any objective criteria the CD (or any digital media) beats them handsomely. Dynamic range, frequency response, noise floor, channel separation - even on the best mastered, half-speed cut, heavy…

There is a special case: dbx discs needing a special, rare decoder seem to sound particularly good: https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=fPSbhZz2OYU

Re: Music's weird cassette-tape revival is paying off

#110

Post by lb1lf »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #101
lb1lf wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(...)also its technically possible to get better sound quality than digital via high quality, high speed, vinyl and an all analog recording to stamping process -This, with all due respect, is a myth. Much as I love my LPs, by any objective criteria the CD (or any digital media) beats them handsomely. Dynamic range, frequency response, noise floor, channel separation - even on the best mastered, half-speed cut, heavy…

I thought it was an inherent limitation in LPs (track skipping probability increases with loudness) that meant they are not mastered into oblivion like CDs?

-If you wanted to, you could master an LP with 0 dynamic range; it would work just fine. (Provided the average signal level was low enough to keep the needle from going haywire attempting to follow the LF grooves)

What quickly becomes a problem for LPs is too much energy in the LF/bass region, which will cause the needle to skip and jump all over the place.

The RIAA correction curve is a measure to alleviate this problem, as it strongly emphasizes low frequencies on playback (and, inversely, reduces them before cutting the master disc, leaving much less LF content in the grooves than would otherwise be needed for accurate reproduction.)

I suspect (Mind, this is just a guess) that when someone says an album has 'a separate master for vinyl', what they are really saying is that someone took a copy of the album master before it was sent through the last loudness war compressor - and sent that copy to the LP plant, using the compressed-as-heck master for any other format.

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