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EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

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Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#21

Post by gautamnarula »

wonder_er wrote: post #18
afterburner wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is a result of the cold hard engineering fact that our current level of technology is insufficient to hit the numbers without raising costs significantly. But once one automaker starts to fudge the numbers at a given price point, all the others must do the same thing or they fall behind." I'm going to have to remember to bring this up as an example whenever people claim private industry can police/regulate them…

there'd be no incentive to lie if the EPA wasn't forcing these "standards" on them. Now, there's no reason to innovate because someone spends big bucks to actually do what everyone else is lying about. This isn't damming of private industry - it's damming of the regulation. (Er, to me. Obviously you might come to a different conclusion. Just wanted to throw in how this article can be read both ways.)

I'd say it's more damning of the enforcement of the regulations than the regulations themselves. If car manufacturers fudging numbers were quickly discovered and made to pay hefty fines to the regulator and refunds to customers, and potentially prison time for executives (depending on how serious the violation is, of course), you can bet the manufacturers would quickly learn it makes prudent business sense to be honest.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#22

Post by toomuchtodo »

avn2109 wrote: post #7
cptskippy wrote: post #3

I have a feeling this is just the first in a long line of violations that are going to surface due to the VW scandal.

If you've ever been near a major automaker's test engineering lab, you quickly realize that ~all of them are doing shady things to hit their numbers. This is a result of the cold hard engineering fact that our current level of technology is insufficient to hit the numbers without raising costs significantly. But once one automaker starts to fudge the numbers at a given price point, all the others must do the same thi…

I would've thought there might be more incentive then for manufacturers to spend a few bucks to test and rat out the models of other manufacturers then; guess not.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#23

Post by sp332 »

mikestew wrote: post #17
dplgk wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not why they're popular. They're popular because the average American thinks bigger is better and they also want a bigger car for when they have an accident, they can kill the other person instead of themselves.

Though I see a slight grayish tint to your comment indicating some down votes, you're spot on. Does anyone really think someone's automotive buying decision goes something like, "yeah, it's hard to park and the mileage sucks, but at least I don't have to take 30 minutes out of my day once every few years to go get emissions tested. That'll make the rough ride and the hundreds of extra dollars in fuel expenses worth i…

There was a subsidy relating to "business" vehicles weighing over 3 tons. It was supposed to target commercial equipment but lots of small business owners just started buying huge SUVs. http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2008/07/high... It's been toned down a bit recently. http://www.section179.org/section_179_deduction.html

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#24

Post by Zigurd »

The most interesting thing about the arrest of a senior VW manager and this is that, evidently, software isn't too hard to investigate. It's probably not easy, but if a white-enough-box test of the ECU shows it cheats by detecting a dynamometer using a simple expedient that has no practical use on the road, then you have evidence that will stand up in court.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#25

Post by revelation »

mikestew wrote: post #17
dplgk wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not why they're popular. They're popular because the average American thinks bigger is better and they also want a bigger car for when they have an accident, they can kill the other person instead of themselves.

Though I see a slight grayish tint to your comment indicating some down votes, you're spot on. Does anyone really think someone's automotive buying decision goes something like, "yeah, it's hard to park and the mileage sucks, but at least I don't have to take 30 minutes out of my day once every few years to go get emissions tested. That'll make the rough ride and the hundreds of extra dollars in fuel expenses worth i…

Consumer demands are a big part of it. I doubt they would have too many issues meeting emission specs if passenger cars were limited to the 40-50kW they realistically need.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#26

Post by Zigurd »

avn2109 wrote: post #7
cptskippy wrote: post #3

I have a feeling this is just the first in a long line of violations that are going to surface due to the VW scandal.

If you've ever been near a major automaker's test engineering lab, you quickly realize that ~all of them are doing shady things to hit their numbers. This is a result of the cold hard engineering fact that our current level of technology is insufficient to hit the numbers without raising costs significantly. But once one automaker starts to fudge the numbers at a given price point, all the others must do the same thi…

Another reason to think it's nearly industry-wide is that ECUs, ECU firmware frameworks, sensors, and interface firmware come from a small set of common suppliers. Anyone not hitting a competitor's' numbers knows their competitors are using the same hardware and much of the same software.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#27

Post by dsp1234 »

blakeyrat wrote: post #11

Note: they mean exceeding in the bad direction, not the good direction. At first I thought this was some kind of spoof article, or Chrysler marketing effort. It should probably read "exceeding limits" not "exceeding standards". EDIT: actually the press release doesn't even say that really. It says Fiat Chrysler installed software that could impact emissions testing but didn't tell the EPA about it, which is considere…

FTA:

"This testing revealed that the FCA vehicle models in question produce increased NOx emissions under conditions that would be encountered in normal operation and use."

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#28

Post by Zigurd »

rubidium wrote: post #2

You think they would've done something after the Volkswagon disaster... this is either extreme ignorance (we don't really know what our code does) or malicious intent (let's hope we don't get caught like them).

It's all out in the field, and fixing the problem in the field would be devilishly hard. VW's cheat enabled them to sell diesels without urea injection. Retrofitting that without admitting guilt or drawing attention isn't practical.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#29

Post by byronwall »

The Notice of Violation (NOV) [0] is worth checking out if you're interested in the nitty gritty details of regulatory enforcement. It's quite readable and paints a clear picture that EPA believes FCA violated the Clean Air Act. Specifically that they have software/code (AECDs) which were "neither described nor justified". Also interesting that they already set up a short URL for this particular issue. [1]

[0] https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-01/documents...

[1] https://www.epa.gov/fca

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#30

Post by Analemma_ »

cptskippy wrote: post #3

I have a feeling this is just the first in a long line of violations that are going to surface due to the VW scandal.

Yeah, there's no way it was just VW. All the other companies making diesel engines must have known, or at least suspected, what was going on with the VW TDIs. There are pretty fundamental reasons why diesel engines have to choose between efficiency and emissions, and when VW announced that they built an efficient engine without a urea device everyone else must've scrambled to find out their "secret", until they realized there wasn't one. The fact that they didn't blow the whistle is pretty compelling evidence that they're up to the same stuff.
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